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  • Proxy Data « Climate Audit
    9 2010 at 12 52 PM Permalink Hi unless I missed something I believe that the two proxy data links are broken even after replacing org by info MBH99 Crowley and Lowery 2000 Does anyone else have any information about them or a copy of those files Many thanks Martin mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 14 PM Permalink Reply Re Tree Ring Proxies Tree growth rates are a compound of temperature and watersupply Any home gardener could figure that out On what possible basis then could people with PhD s and professorships propose tree rings as a temperature proxy without at the very least a concurrent record of water supply at the same location No wonder the Saudi s think this is all so much doo doo its not their vested interest in selling oil its their long experience in lots of temperature with no water no trees To them it is a no brainer Adam Collyer Posted Jul 7 2010 at 4 42 PM Permalink Reply Even more interestingly wouldn t tree rings depend on CO2 concentration over long timescales Plants grow faster as CO2 concentrations rise So couldn t tree rings be a proxy for CO2 rather than temperature In which case it wouldn t really be surprising if the tree ring temperature record correlated with CO2 because it would really be a CO2 record Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 58 PM Permalink Reply The leaves of trees are used as a CO2 proxy There are also more than half a dozen other proxies for CO2 Which variable correlates most strongly with growth rates depends on which species of tree you are looking at Theoretically if you had a species for each variable you would be able to get really good ideas of past atmospheres In general how fast a plant grows depends of what variable is limiting like a scarce nutrient Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 59 PM Permalink do not understand what reasoning your over long timescales comment was based on Adam Collyer Posted Nov 24 2010 at 1 20 PM Permalink Over long timescales I meant more than yearly In other words obviously the CO2 concentration varies across the year but the tree ring thickness presumably would depend on average CO2 concentrations over periods of more than one year But the fact remains if more CO2 means that tree rings get wider then thicker tree rings could be the result of higher CO2 as well as higher temperature mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 27 PM Permalink Reply the thing that always got be about the hockey stick analysis was that planetary albedo was not modelled as a variable yet consideration of greenhouse effect first principles says it is and a significant one Even if Stephen McIntyre Ross McKindrick and others had not analysised the mathematical modelling Mann et al s work would remain fundamentally and fatally flawed The only decent analysis I have come across which models albedo is by Ermakov Okhlopkov and Stozhkov and which uses a fourier transform to model the constituent contributions to temperature variation over time mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 34 PM Permalink Reply and another thing Ifyou compare the temperature record since about 1850 of the globe the two hemishperes and the difference between the two an interesting pattern emerges The SH where I live is on avereage about 0 1C cooler than the NH but over the past decade that has opened up to about 0 3 degrees This suggests to me that the two hemispheres act quite differently in their contribution to the global average That the two are geographical opposites that is NH is largely land with a polar sea surrounded by land mass and the SH the opposite seems to me that their albedo behaviour is likely quite different and that perhaps the NH tends to drive a warming and the SH a cooling phase This is also consistent with the various dynamic interactions of the seas and atmoshere from N to S John Murphy Posted Feb 18 2010 at 2 13 AM Permalink Reply Steve Have you seen the new paper by Keith Briffa at http www cru uea ac uk cru people briffa yamal2009 Regards Steve that was out in late October See contemporary posts for much discussion wooden spoon Posted Feb 26 2010 at 5 41 PM Permalink Reply A new paper that casts doubt on the findings of Berkelhammer Stott s oxygen isotope bristlecone departure Abstract is here http hol sagepub com cgi content abstract 20 1 3 ButchKelly Posted May 10 2010 at 4 55 PM Permalink Reply Of course CO2 has been increasing also any gardener will tell you that an increase in fertilizer will increase the rate of growth Lars Jonsson Posted Jan 18 2011 at 12 21 PM Permalink Reply Has the following e mail from the CRU climategate regarding Yamal treerings been commented on CA It clearly shows that Briffa have tried to alter the conclusion delt with in Hentemirov 2002 in accordance with the teams effort to show the last centuries unprecedented warmth From Rashit Hantemirov To Keith Briffa Subject Re Yamal paper for The Holocene special issue Date Wed 21 Aug 2002 17 56 18 0500 Reply to Rashit Hantemirov Dear Keith thank you very much for editing our paper It s a pity you strike your name off the list of authors you make an important contribution to writing paper Your corrections and additions surely improve paper I would only notice the next sentence page 8 The low interannual variability and the minimum occurrence of cold extremes during the 20th century argue that the most recent decades of this long summer record represent the most favourable climate conditions for tree growth within the last four millennia I m not sure that this statement follows unambiguous from results presented in this paper Because mean temperatures during last decades according presented reconstruction

    Original URL path: http://climateaudit.org/proxy-data/?replytocom=215021 (2016-02-08)
    Open archived version from archive


  • Proxy Data « Climate Audit
    9 2010 at 12 52 PM Permalink Hi unless I missed something I believe that the two proxy data links are broken even after replacing org by info MBH99 Crowley and Lowery 2000 Does anyone else have any information about them or a copy of those files Many thanks Martin mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 14 PM Permalink Reply Re Tree Ring Proxies Tree growth rates are a compound of temperature and watersupply Any home gardener could figure that out On what possible basis then could people with PhD s and professorships propose tree rings as a temperature proxy without at the very least a concurrent record of water supply at the same location No wonder the Saudi s think this is all so much doo doo its not their vested interest in selling oil its their long experience in lots of temperature with no water no trees To them it is a no brainer Adam Collyer Posted Jul 7 2010 at 4 42 PM Permalink Reply Even more interestingly wouldn t tree rings depend on CO2 concentration over long timescales Plants grow faster as CO2 concentrations rise So couldn t tree rings be a proxy for CO2 rather than temperature In which case it wouldn t really be surprising if the tree ring temperature record correlated with CO2 because it would really be a CO2 record Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 58 PM Permalink Reply The leaves of trees are used as a CO2 proxy There are also more than half a dozen other proxies for CO2 Which variable correlates most strongly with growth rates depends on which species of tree you are looking at Theoretically if you had a species for each variable you would be able to get really good ideas of past atmospheres In general how fast a plant grows depends of what variable is limiting like a scarce nutrient Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 59 PM Permalink do not understand what reasoning your over long timescales comment was based on Adam Collyer Posted Nov 24 2010 at 1 20 PM Permalink Over long timescales I meant more than yearly In other words obviously the CO2 concentration varies across the year but the tree ring thickness presumably would depend on average CO2 concentrations over periods of more than one year But the fact remains if more CO2 means that tree rings get wider then thicker tree rings could be the result of higher CO2 as well as higher temperature mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 27 PM Permalink Reply the thing that always got be about the hockey stick analysis was that planetary albedo was not modelled as a variable yet consideration of greenhouse effect first principles says it is and a significant one Even if Stephen McIntyre Ross McKindrick and others had not analysised the mathematical modelling Mann et al s work would remain fundamentally and fatally flawed The only decent analysis I have come across which models albedo is by Ermakov Okhlopkov and Stozhkov and which uses a fourier transform to model the constituent contributions to temperature variation over time mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 34 PM Permalink Reply and another thing Ifyou compare the temperature record since about 1850 of the globe the two hemishperes and the difference between the two an interesting pattern emerges The SH where I live is on avereage about 0 1C cooler than the NH but over the past decade that has opened up to about 0 3 degrees This suggests to me that the two hemispheres act quite differently in their contribution to the global average That the two are geographical opposites that is NH is largely land with a polar sea surrounded by land mass and the SH the opposite seems to me that their albedo behaviour is likely quite different and that perhaps the NH tends to drive a warming and the SH a cooling phase This is also consistent with the various dynamic interactions of the seas and atmoshere from N to S John Murphy Posted Feb 18 2010 at 2 13 AM Permalink Reply Steve Have you seen the new paper by Keith Briffa at http www cru uea ac uk cru people briffa yamal2009 Regards Steve that was out in late October See contemporary posts for much discussion wooden spoon Posted Feb 26 2010 at 5 41 PM Permalink Reply A new paper that casts doubt on the findings of Berkelhammer Stott s oxygen isotope bristlecone departure Abstract is here http hol sagepub com cgi content abstract 20 1 3 ButchKelly Posted May 10 2010 at 4 55 PM Permalink Reply Of course CO2 has been increasing also any gardener will tell you that an increase in fertilizer will increase the rate of growth Lars Jonsson Posted Jan 18 2011 at 12 21 PM Permalink Reply Has the following e mail from the CRU climategate regarding Yamal treerings been commented on CA It clearly shows that Briffa have tried to alter the conclusion delt with in Hentemirov 2002 in accordance with the teams effort to show the last centuries unprecedented warmth From Rashit Hantemirov To Keith Briffa Subject Re Yamal paper for The Holocene special issue Date Wed 21 Aug 2002 17 56 18 0500 Reply to Rashit Hantemirov Dear Keith thank you very much for editing our paper It s a pity you strike your name off the list of authors you make an important contribution to writing paper Your corrections and additions surely improve paper I would only notice the next sentence page 8 The low interannual variability and the minimum occurrence of cold extremes during the 20th century argue that the most recent decades of this long summer record represent the most favourable climate conditions for tree growth within the last four millennia I m not sure that this statement follows unambiguous from results presented in this paper Because mean temperatures during last decades according presented reconstruction

    Original URL path: http://climateaudit.org/proxy-data/?replytocom=220465 (2016-02-08)
    Open archived version from archive

  • Proxy Data « Climate Audit
    at 12 52 PM Permalink Hi unless I missed something I believe that the two proxy data links are broken even after replacing org by info MBH99 Crowley and Lowery 2000 Does anyone else have any information about them or a copy of those files Many thanks Martin mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 14 PM Permalink Reply Re Tree Ring Proxies Tree growth rates are a compound of temperature and watersupply Any home gardener could figure that out On what possible basis then could people with PhD s and professorships propose tree rings as a temperature proxy without at the very least a concurrent record of water supply at the same location No wonder the Saudi s think this is all so much doo doo its not their vested interest in selling oil its their long experience in lots of temperature with no water no trees To them it is a no brainer Adam Collyer Posted Jul 7 2010 at 4 42 PM Permalink Reply Even more interestingly wouldn t tree rings depend on CO2 concentration over long timescales Plants grow faster as CO2 concentrations rise So couldn t tree rings be a proxy for CO2 rather than temperature In which case it wouldn t really be surprising if the tree ring temperature record correlated with CO2 because it would really be a CO2 record Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 58 PM Permalink Reply The leaves of trees are used as a CO2 proxy There are also more than half a dozen other proxies for CO2 Which variable correlates most strongly with growth rates depends on which species of tree you are looking at Theoretically if you had a species for each variable you would be able to get really good ideas of past atmospheres In general how fast a plant grows depends of what variable is limiting like a scarce nutrient Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 59 PM Permalink do not understand what reasoning your over long timescales comment was based on Adam Collyer Posted Nov 24 2010 at 1 20 PM Permalink Over long timescales I meant more than yearly In other words obviously the CO2 concentration varies across the year but the tree ring thickness presumably would depend on average CO2 concentrations over periods of more than one year But the fact remains if more CO2 means that tree rings get wider then thicker tree rings could be the result of higher CO2 as well as higher temperature mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 27 PM Permalink Reply the thing that always got be about the hockey stick analysis was that planetary albedo was not modelled as a variable yet consideration of greenhouse effect first principles says it is and a significant one Even if Stephen McIntyre Ross McKindrick and others had not analysised the mathematical modelling Mann et al s work would remain fundamentally and fatally flawed The only decent analysis I have come across which models albedo is by Ermakov Okhlopkov and Stozhkov and which uses a fourier transform to model the constituent contributions to temperature variation over time mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 34 PM Permalink Reply and another thing Ifyou compare the temperature record since about 1850 of the globe the two hemishperes and the difference between the two an interesting pattern emerges The SH where I live is on avereage about 0 1C cooler than the NH but over the past decade that has opened up to about 0 3 degrees This suggests to me that the two hemispheres act quite differently in their contribution to the global average That the two are geographical opposites that is NH is largely land with a polar sea surrounded by land mass and the SH the opposite seems to me that their albedo behaviour is likely quite different and that perhaps the NH tends to drive a warming and the SH a cooling phase This is also consistent with the various dynamic interactions of the seas and atmoshere from N to S John Murphy Posted Feb 18 2010 at 2 13 AM Permalink Reply Steve Have you seen the new paper by Keith Briffa at http www cru uea ac uk cru people briffa yamal2009 Regards Steve that was out in late October See contemporary posts for much discussion wooden spoon Posted Feb 26 2010 at 5 41 PM Permalink Reply A new paper that casts doubt on the findings of Berkelhammer Stott s oxygen isotope bristlecone departure Abstract is here http hol sagepub com cgi content abstract 20 1 3 ButchKelly Posted May 10 2010 at 4 55 PM Permalink Reply Of course CO2 has been increasing also any gardener will tell you that an increase in fertilizer will increase the rate of growth Lars Jonsson Posted Jan 18 2011 at 12 21 PM Permalink Reply Has the following e mail from the CRU climategate regarding Yamal treerings been commented on CA It clearly shows that Briffa have tried to alter the conclusion delt with in Hentemirov 2002 in accordance with the teams effort to show the last centuries unprecedented warmth From Rashit Hantemirov To Keith Briffa Subject Re Yamal paper for The Holocene special issue Date Wed 21 Aug 2002 17 56 18 0500 Reply to Rashit Hantemirov Dear Keith thank you very much for editing our paper It s a pity you strike your name off the list of authors you make an important contribution to writing paper Your corrections and additions surely improve paper I would only notice the next sentence page 8 The low interannual variability and the minimum occurrence of cold extremes during the 20th century argue that the most recent decades of this long summer record represent the most favourable climate conditions for tree growth within the last four millennia I m not sure that this statement follows unambiguous from results presented in this paper Because mean temperatures during last decades according presented reconstruction are not

    Original URL path: http://climateaudit.org/proxy-data/?replytocom=234507 (2016-02-08)
    Open archived version from archive

  • Proxy Data « Climate Audit
    at 12 52 PM Permalink Hi unless I missed something I believe that the two proxy data links are broken even after replacing org by info MBH99 Crowley and Lowery 2000 Does anyone else have any information about them or a copy of those files Many thanks Martin mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 14 PM Permalink Reply Re Tree Ring Proxies Tree growth rates are a compound of temperature and watersupply Any home gardener could figure that out On what possible basis then could people with PhD s and professorships propose tree rings as a temperature proxy without at the very least a concurrent record of water supply at the same location No wonder the Saudi s think this is all so much doo doo its not their vested interest in selling oil its their long experience in lots of temperature with no water no trees To them it is a no brainer Adam Collyer Posted Jul 7 2010 at 4 42 PM Permalink Reply Even more interestingly wouldn t tree rings depend on CO2 concentration over long timescales Plants grow faster as CO2 concentrations rise So couldn t tree rings be a proxy for CO2 rather than temperature In which case it wouldn t really be surprising if the tree ring temperature record correlated with CO2 because it would really be a CO2 record Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 58 PM Permalink Reply The leaves of trees are used as a CO2 proxy There are also more than half a dozen other proxies for CO2 Which variable correlates most strongly with growth rates depends on which species of tree you are looking at Theoretically if you had a species for each variable you would be able to get really good ideas of past atmospheres In general how fast a plant grows depends of what variable is limiting like a scarce nutrient Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 59 PM Permalink do not understand what reasoning your over long timescales comment was based on Adam Collyer Posted Nov 24 2010 at 1 20 PM Permalink Over long timescales I meant more than yearly In other words obviously the CO2 concentration varies across the year but the tree ring thickness presumably would depend on average CO2 concentrations over periods of more than one year But the fact remains if more CO2 means that tree rings get wider then thicker tree rings could be the result of higher CO2 as well as higher temperature mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 27 PM Permalink Reply the thing that always got be about the hockey stick analysis was that planetary albedo was not modelled as a variable yet consideration of greenhouse effect first principles says it is and a significant one Even if Stephen McIntyre Ross McKindrick and others had not analysised the mathematical modelling Mann et al s work would remain fundamentally and fatally flawed The only decent analysis I have come across which models albedo is by Ermakov Okhlopkov and Stozhkov and which uses a fourier transform to model the constituent contributions to temperature variation over time mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 34 PM Permalink Reply and another thing Ifyou compare the temperature record since about 1850 of the globe the two hemishperes and the difference between the two an interesting pattern emerges The SH where I live is on avereage about 0 1C cooler than the NH but over the past decade that has opened up to about 0 3 degrees This suggests to me that the two hemispheres act quite differently in their contribution to the global average That the two are geographical opposites that is NH is largely land with a polar sea surrounded by land mass and the SH the opposite seems to me that their albedo behaviour is likely quite different and that perhaps the NH tends to drive a warming and the SH a cooling phase This is also consistent with the various dynamic interactions of the seas and atmoshere from N to S John Murphy Posted Feb 18 2010 at 2 13 AM Permalink Reply Steve Have you seen the new paper by Keith Briffa at http www cru uea ac uk cru people briffa yamal2009 Regards Steve that was out in late October See contemporary posts for much discussion wooden spoon Posted Feb 26 2010 at 5 41 PM Permalink Reply A new paper that casts doubt on the findings of Berkelhammer Stott s oxygen isotope bristlecone departure Abstract is here http hol sagepub com cgi content abstract 20 1 3 ButchKelly Posted May 10 2010 at 4 55 PM Permalink Reply Of course CO2 has been increasing also any gardener will tell you that an increase in fertilizer will increase the rate of growth Lars Jonsson Posted Jan 18 2011 at 12 21 PM Permalink Reply Has the following e mail from the CRU climategate regarding Yamal treerings been commented on CA It clearly shows that Briffa have tried to alter the conclusion delt with in Hentemirov 2002 in accordance with the teams effort to show the last centuries unprecedented warmth From Rashit Hantemirov To Keith Briffa Subject Re Yamal paper for The Holocene special issue Date Wed 21 Aug 2002 17 56 18 0500 Reply to Rashit Hantemirov Dear Keith thank you very much for editing our paper It s a pity you strike your name off the list of authors you make an important contribution to writing paper Your corrections and additions surely improve paper I would only notice the next sentence page 8 The low interannual variability and the minimum occurrence of cold extremes during the 20th century argue that the most recent decades of this long summer record represent the most favourable climate conditions for tree growth within the last four millennia I m not sure that this statement follows unambiguous from results presented in this paper Because mean temperatures during last decades according presented reconstruction are not

    Original URL path: http://climateaudit.org/proxy-data/?replytocom=245814 (2016-02-08)
    Open archived version from archive

  • Proxy Data « Climate Audit
    at 12 52 PM Permalink Hi unless I missed something I believe that the two proxy data links are broken even after replacing org by info MBH99 Crowley and Lowery 2000 Does anyone else have any information about them or a copy of those files Many thanks Martin mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 14 PM Permalink Reply Re Tree Ring Proxies Tree growth rates are a compound of temperature and watersupply Any home gardener could figure that out On what possible basis then could people with PhD s and professorships propose tree rings as a temperature proxy without at the very least a concurrent record of water supply at the same location No wonder the Saudi s think this is all so much doo doo its not their vested interest in selling oil its their long experience in lots of temperature with no water no trees To them it is a no brainer Adam Collyer Posted Jul 7 2010 at 4 42 PM Permalink Reply Even more interestingly wouldn t tree rings depend on CO2 concentration over long timescales Plants grow faster as CO2 concentrations rise So couldn t tree rings be a proxy for CO2 rather than temperature In which case it wouldn t really be surprising if the tree ring temperature record correlated with CO2 because it would really be a CO2 record Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 58 PM Permalink Reply The leaves of trees are used as a CO2 proxy There are also more than half a dozen other proxies for CO2 Which variable correlates most strongly with growth rates depends on which species of tree you are looking at Theoretically if you had a species for each variable you would be able to get really good ideas of past atmospheres In general how fast a plant grows depends of what variable is limiting like a scarce nutrient Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 59 PM Permalink do not understand what reasoning your over long timescales comment was based on Adam Collyer Posted Nov 24 2010 at 1 20 PM Permalink Over long timescales I meant more than yearly In other words obviously the CO2 concentration varies across the year but the tree ring thickness presumably would depend on average CO2 concentrations over periods of more than one year But the fact remains if more CO2 means that tree rings get wider then thicker tree rings could be the result of higher CO2 as well as higher temperature mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 27 PM Permalink Reply the thing that always got be about the hockey stick analysis was that planetary albedo was not modelled as a variable yet consideration of greenhouse effect first principles says it is and a significant one Even if Stephen McIntyre Ross McKindrick and others had not analysised the mathematical modelling Mann et al s work would remain fundamentally and fatally flawed The only decent analysis I have come across which models albedo is by Ermakov Okhlopkov and Stozhkov and which uses a fourier transform to model the constituent contributions to temperature variation over time mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 34 PM Permalink Reply and another thing Ifyou compare the temperature record since about 1850 of the globe the two hemishperes and the difference between the two an interesting pattern emerges The SH where I live is on avereage about 0 1C cooler than the NH but over the past decade that has opened up to about 0 3 degrees This suggests to me that the two hemispheres act quite differently in their contribution to the global average That the two are geographical opposites that is NH is largely land with a polar sea surrounded by land mass and the SH the opposite seems to me that their albedo behaviour is likely quite different and that perhaps the NH tends to drive a warming and the SH a cooling phase This is also consistent with the various dynamic interactions of the seas and atmoshere from N to S John Murphy Posted Feb 18 2010 at 2 13 AM Permalink Reply Steve Have you seen the new paper by Keith Briffa at http www cru uea ac uk cru people briffa yamal2009 Regards Steve that was out in late October See contemporary posts for much discussion wooden spoon Posted Feb 26 2010 at 5 41 PM Permalink Reply A new paper that casts doubt on the findings of Berkelhammer Stott s oxygen isotope bristlecone departure Abstract is here http hol sagepub com cgi content abstract 20 1 3 ButchKelly Posted May 10 2010 at 4 55 PM Permalink Reply Of course CO2 has been increasing also any gardener will tell you that an increase in fertilizer will increase the rate of growth Lars Jonsson Posted Jan 18 2011 at 12 21 PM Permalink Reply Has the following e mail from the CRU climategate regarding Yamal treerings been commented on CA It clearly shows that Briffa have tried to alter the conclusion delt with in Hentemirov 2002 in accordance with the teams effort to show the last centuries unprecedented warmth From Rashit Hantemirov To Keith Briffa Subject Re Yamal paper for The Holocene special issue Date Wed 21 Aug 2002 17 56 18 0500 Reply to Rashit Hantemirov Dear Keith thank you very much for editing our paper It s a pity you strike your name off the list of authors you make an important contribution to writing paper Your corrections and additions surely improve paper I would only notice the next sentence page 8 The low interannual variability and the minimum occurrence of cold extremes during the 20th century argue that the most recent decades of this long summer record represent the most favourable climate conditions for tree growth within the last four millennia I m not sure that this statement follows unambiguous from results presented in this paper Because mean temperatures during last decades according presented reconstruction are not

    Original URL path: http://climateaudit.org/proxy-data/?replytocom=220472 (2016-02-08)
    Open archived version from archive

  • Proxy Data « Climate Audit
    at 12 52 PM Permalink Hi unless I missed something I believe that the two proxy data links are broken even after replacing org by info MBH99 Crowley and Lowery 2000 Does anyone else have any information about them or a copy of those files Many thanks Martin mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 14 PM Permalink Reply Re Tree Ring Proxies Tree growth rates are a compound of temperature and watersupply Any home gardener could figure that out On what possible basis then could people with PhD s and professorships propose tree rings as a temperature proxy without at the very least a concurrent record of water supply at the same location No wonder the Saudi s think this is all so much doo doo its not their vested interest in selling oil its their long experience in lots of temperature with no water no trees To them it is a no brainer Adam Collyer Posted Jul 7 2010 at 4 42 PM Permalink Reply Even more interestingly wouldn t tree rings depend on CO2 concentration over long timescales Plants grow faster as CO2 concentrations rise So couldn t tree rings be a proxy for CO2 rather than temperature In which case it wouldn t really be surprising if the tree ring temperature record correlated with CO2 because it would really be a CO2 record Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 58 PM Permalink Reply The leaves of trees are used as a CO2 proxy There are also more than half a dozen other proxies for CO2 Which variable correlates most strongly with growth rates depends on which species of tree you are looking at Theoretically if you had a species for each variable you would be able to get really good ideas of past atmospheres In general how fast a plant grows depends of what variable is limiting like a scarce nutrient Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 59 PM Permalink do not understand what reasoning your over long timescales comment was based on Adam Collyer Posted Nov 24 2010 at 1 20 PM Permalink Over long timescales I meant more than yearly In other words obviously the CO2 concentration varies across the year but the tree ring thickness presumably would depend on average CO2 concentrations over periods of more than one year But the fact remains if more CO2 means that tree rings get wider then thicker tree rings could be the result of higher CO2 as well as higher temperature mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 27 PM Permalink Reply the thing that always got be about the hockey stick analysis was that planetary albedo was not modelled as a variable yet consideration of greenhouse effect first principles says it is and a significant one Even if Stephen McIntyre Ross McKindrick and others had not analysised the mathematical modelling Mann et al s work would remain fundamentally and fatally flawed The only decent analysis I have come across which models albedo is by Ermakov Okhlopkov and Stozhkov and which uses a fourier transform to model the constituent contributions to temperature variation over time mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 34 PM Permalink Reply and another thing Ifyou compare the temperature record since about 1850 of the globe the two hemishperes and the difference between the two an interesting pattern emerges The SH where I live is on avereage about 0 1C cooler than the NH but over the past decade that has opened up to about 0 3 degrees This suggests to me that the two hemispheres act quite differently in their contribution to the global average That the two are geographical opposites that is NH is largely land with a polar sea surrounded by land mass and the SH the opposite seems to me that their albedo behaviour is likely quite different and that perhaps the NH tends to drive a warming and the SH a cooling phase This is also consistent with the various dynamic interactions of the seas and atmoshere from N to S John Murphy Posted Feb 18 2010 at 2 13 AM Permalink Reply Steve Have you seen the new paper by Keith Briffa at http www cru uea ac uk cru people briffa yamal2009 Regards Steve that was out in late October See contemporary posts for much discussion wooden spoon Posted Feb 26 2010 at 5 41 PM Permalink Reply A new paper that casts doubt on the findings of Berkelhammer Stott s oxygen isotope bristlecone departure Abstract is here http hol sagepub com cgi content abstract 20 1 3 ButchKelly Posted May 10 2010 at 4 55 PM Permalink Reply Of course CO2 has been increasing also any gardener will tell you that an increase in fertilizer will increase the rate of growth Lars Jonsson Posted Jan 18 2011 at 12 21 PM Permalink Reply Has the following e mail from the CRU climategate regarding Yamal treerings been commented on CA It clearly shows that Briffa have tried to alter the conclusion delt with in Hentemirov 2002 in accordance with the teams effort to show the last centuries unprecedented warmth From Rashit Hantemirov To Keith Briffa Subject Re Yamal paper for The Holocene special issue Date Wed 21 Aug 2002 17 56 18 0500 Reply to Rashit Hantemirov Dear Keith thank you very much for editing our paper It s a pity you strike your name off the list of authors you make an important contribution to writing paper Your corrections and additions surely improve paper I would only notice the next sentence page 8 The low interannual variability and the minimum occurrence of cold extremes during the 20th century argue that the most recent decades of this long summer record represent the most favourable climate conditions for tree growth within the last four millennia I m not sure that this statement follows unambiguous from results presented in this paper Because mean temperatures during last decades according presented reconstruction are not

    Original URL path: http://climateaudit.org/proxy-data/?replytocom=220477 (2016-02-08)
    Open archived version from archive

  • Proxy Data « Climate Audit
    9 2010 at 12 52 PM Permalink Hi unless I missed something I believe that the two proxy data links are broken even after replacing org by info MBH99 Crowley and Lowery 2000 Does anyone else have any information about them or a copy of those files Many thanks Martin mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 14 PM Permalink Reply Re Tree Ring Proxies Tree growth rates are a compound of temperature and watersupply Any home gardener could figure that out On what possible basis then could people with PhD s and professorships propose tree rings as a temperature proxy without at the very least a concurrent record of water supply at the same location No wonder the Saudi s think this is all so much doo doo its not their vested interest in selling oil its their long experience in lots of temperature with no water no trees To them it is a no brainer Adam Collyer Posted Jul 7 2010 at 4 42 PM Permalink Reply Even more interestingly wouldn t tree rings depend on CO2 concentration over long timescales Plants grow faster as CO2 concentrations rise So couldn t tree rings be a proxy for CO2 rather than temperature In which case it wouldn t really be surprising if the tree ring temperature record correlated with CO2 because it would really be a CO2 record Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 58 PM Permalink Reply The leaves of trees are used as a CO2 proxy There are also more than half a dozen other proxies for CO2 Which variable correlates most strongly with growth rates depends on which species of tree you are looking at Theoretically if you had a species for each variable you would be able to get really good ideas of past atmospheres In general how fast a plant grows depends of what variable is limiting like a scarce nutrient Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 59 PM Permalink do not understand what reasoning your over long timescales comment was based on Adam Collyer Posted Nov 24 2010 at 1 20 PM Permalink Over long timescales I meant more than yearly In other words obviously the CO2 concentration varies across the year but the tree ring thickness presumably would depend on average CO2 concentrations over periods of more than one year But the fact remains if more CO2 means that tree rings get wider then thicker tree rings could be the result of higher CO2 as well as higher temperature mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 27 PM Permalink Reply the thing that always got be about the hockey stick analysis was that planetary albedo was not modelled as a variable yet consideration of greenhouse effect first principles says it is and a significant one Even if Stephen McIntyre Ross McKindrick and others had not analysised the mathematical modelling Mann et al s work would remain fundamentally and fatally flawed The only decent analysis I have come across which models albedo is by Ermakov Okhlopkov and Stozhkov and which uses a fourier transform to model the constituent contributions to temperature variation over time mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 34 PM Permalink Reply and another thing Ifyou compare the temperature record since about 1850 of the globe the two hemishperes and the difference between the two an interesting pattern emerges The SH where I live is on avereage about 0 1C cooler than the NH but over the past decade that has opened up to about 0 3 degrees This suggests to me that the two hemispheres act quite differently in their contribution to the global average That the two are geographical opposites that is NH is largely land with a polar sea surrounded by land mass and the SH the opposite seems to me that their albedo behaviour is likely quite different and that perhaps the NH tends to drive a warming and the SH a cooling phase This is also consistent with the various dynamic interactions of the seas and atmoshere from N to S John Murphy Posted Feb 18 2010 at 2 13 AM Permalink Reply Steve Have you seen the new paper by Keith Briffa at http www cru uea ac uk cru people briffa yamal2009 Regards Steve that was out in late October See contemporary posts for much discussion wooden spoon Posted Feb 26 2010 at 5 41 PM Permalink Reply A new paper that casts doubt on the findings of Berkelhammer Stott s oxygen isotope bristlecone departure Abstract is here http hol sagepub com cgi content abstract 20 1 3 ButchKelly Posted May 10 2010 at 4 55 PM Permalink Reply Of course CO2 has been increasing also any gardener will tell you that an increase in fertilizer will increase the rate of growth Lars Jonsson Posted Jan 18 2011 at 12 21 PM Permalink Reply Has the following e mail from the CRU climategate regarding Yamal treerings been commented on CA It clearly shows that Briffa have tried to alter the conclusion delt with in Hentemirov 2002 in accordance with the teams effort to show the last centuries unprecedented warmth From Rashit Hantemirov To Keith Briffa Subject Re Yamal paper for The Holocene special issue Date Wed 21 Aug 2002 17 56 18 0500 Reply to Rashit Hantemirov Dear Keith thank you very much for editing our paper It s a pity you strike your name off the list of authors you make an important contribution to writing paper Your corrections and additions surely improve paper I would only notice the next sentence page 8 The low interannual variability and the minimum occurrence of cold extremes during the 20th century argue that the most recent decades of this long summer record represent the most favourable climate conditions for tree growth within the last four millennia I m not sure that this statement follows unambiguous from results presented in this paper Because mean temperatures during last decades according presented reconstruction

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  • Proxy Data « Climate Audit
    9 2010 at 12 52 PM Permalink Hi unless I missed something I believe that the two proxy data links are broken even after replacing org by info MBH99 Crowley and Lowery 2000 Does anyone else have any information about them or a copy of those files Many thanks Martin mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 14 PM Permalink Reply Re Tree Ring Proxies Tree growth rates are a compound of temperature and watersupply Any home gardener could figure that out On what possible basis then could people with PhD s and professorships propose tree rings as a temperature proxy without at the very least a concurrent record of water supply at the same location No wonder the Saudi s think this is all so much doo doo its not their vested interest in selling oil its their long experience in lots of temperature with no water no trees To them it is a no brainer Adam Collyer Posted Jul 7 2010 at 4 42 PM Permalink Reply Even more interestingly wouldn t tree rings depend on CO2 concentration over long timescales Plants grow faster as CO2 concentrations rise So couldn t tree rings be a proxy for CO2 rather than temperature In which case it wouldn t really be surprising if the tree ring temperature record correlated with CO2 because it would really be a CO2 record Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 58 PM Permalink Reply The leaves of trees are used as a CO2 proxy There are also more than half a dozen other proxies for CO2 Which variable correlates most strongly with growth rates depends on which species of tree you are looking at Theoretically if you had a species for each variable you would be able to get really good ideas of past atmospheres In general how fast a plant grows depends of what variable is limiting like a scarce nutrient Gogo Posted Nov 23 2010 at 3 59 PM Permalink do not understand what reasoning your over long timescales comment was based on Adam Collyer Posted Nov 24 2010 at 1 20 PM Permalink Over long timescales I meant more than yearly In other words obviously the CO2 concentration varies across the year but the tree ring thickness presumably would depend on average CO2 concentrations over periods of more than one year But the fact remains if more CO2 means that tree rings get wider then thicker tree rings could be the result of higher CO2 as well as higher temperature mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 27 PM Permalink Reply the thing that always got be about the hockey stick analysis was that planetary albedo was not modelled as a variable yet consideration of greenhouse effect first principles says it is and a significant one Even if Stephen McIntyre Ross McKindrick and others had not analysised the mathematical modelling Mann et al s work would remain fundamentally and fatally flawed The only decent analysis I have come across which models albedo is by Ermakov Okhlopkov and Stozhkov and which uses a fourier transform to model the constituent contributions to temperature variation over time mike seward Posted Feb 7 2010 at 11 34 PM Permalink Reply and another thing Ifyou compare the temperature record since about 1850 of the globe the two hemishperes and the difference between the two an interesting pattern emerges The SH where I live is on avereage about 0 1C cooler than the NH but over the past decade that has opened up to about 0 3 degrees This suggests to me that the two hemispheres act quite differently in their contribution to the global average That the two are geographical opposites that is NH is largely land with a polar sea surrounded by land mass and the SH the opposite seems to me that their albedo behaviour is likely quite different and that perhaps the NH tends to drive a warming and the SH a cooling phase This is also consistent with the various dynamic interactions of the seas and atmoshere from N to S John Murphy Posted Feb 18 2010 at 2 13 AM Permalink Reply Steve Have you seen the new paper by Keith Briffa at http www cru uea ac uk cru people briffa yamal2009 Regards Steve that was out in late October See contemporary posts for much discussion wooden spoon Posted Feb 26 2010 at 5 41 PM Permalink Reply A new paper that casts doubt on the findings of Berkelhammer Stott s oxygen isotope bristlecone departure Abstract is here http hol sagepub com cgi content abstract 20 1 3 ButchKelly Posted May 10 2010 at 4 55 PM Permalink Reply Of course CO2 has been increasing also any gardener will tell you that an increase in fertilizer will increase the rate of growth Lars Jonsson Posted Jan 18 2011 at 12 21 PM Permalink Reply Has the following e mail from the CRU climategate regarding Yamal treerings been commented on CA It clearly shows that Briffa have tried to alter the conclusion delt with in Hentemirov 2002 in accordance with the teams effort to show the last centuries unprecedented warmth From Rashit Hantemirov To Keith Briffa Subject Re Yamal paper for The Holocene special issue Date Wed 21 Aug 2002 17 56 18 0500 Reply to Rashit Hantemirov Dear Keith thank you very much for editing our paper It s a pity you strike your name off the list of authors you make an important contribution to writing paper Your corrections and additions surely improve paper I would only notice the next sentence page 8 The low interannual variability and the minimum occurrence of cold extremes during the 20th century argue that the most recent decades of this long summer record represent the most favourable climate conditions for tree growth within the last four millennia I m not sure that this statement follows unambiguous from results presented in this paper Because mean temperatures during last decades according presented reconstruction

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