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  • Alternate CEB press designs: mutual improvements - Open Source Ecology Forums
    machine from that video looks quite neat It should be simple enough to put a set of rollers where the man is standing and modifying the machine to push the block onto them when it moves forward to fill the mold I like how compact the design is Vote Up 0 Vote Down Mike Apostol January 2012 Permalink Ya they have another version of the machine that does exactly that there is just a section of the lower pressfoot that raises up and then the brick can be pushed off with another cylinder without worry about it catching on the internal feature One thing that requires careful consideration in replicating this design is the portability transportability of it It s one of the issues currently being looked at on the Liberator as having it easily movable is pretty useful The easiest thing to do is have it mounted on a trailer The downside of the vertical press designs is that because of required ground clearances during transportation your CEB hopper can end up being very high up You ll want to consider a removable foldable hopper for transportation or a mechanism that allows you to raise and lower the entire structure for when you re traveling with it or not Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink All good points Mike I watched the video on how to put together the Liberator together from the effort those guys needed to exert on some of those parts the thing must weigh a tonne I don t see how it s easily transportable that s for sure asside from the use of a forklife and a flat bed trailer and taking it apart for transport looks like it would take hours Yeah the hopper does get very high I was thinking that too So just to recap our ultimate machine is a horizontal press that allows for customised interlocking brick moulds with a hopper at a height that can be filled by hand and where the bricks are output in a weigh that doesn t prevent continual operation of the machine The entire machine should be on wheels for easy transport hmmm Let me think on that Vote Up 0 Vote Down Mike Apostol January 2012 Permalink haha one of those people in the video was me D And to think that video was edited to make it look easy haha Your list of specs sounds good to me I m literally working right now on a wiki reorganization format that I ll be posting on the forum soon for input to try and allow parallel development for different designs that end up with the same function i e different CEB press methods but still an easy way to capture all the data and stuff I spent a bit of time with the CEB in Missouri and and have a list of improvements for the next generation one too If you d like pm me your email I ll send you some pictures of a commercial horizontal press that Floyd construction manager brought and used to help us press bricks One of the main issues going horizontal is that you now have gravity working on the sliding parts so you have a lot more abrasion with the metal on metal sliding which then requires better abrasion resistant steel higher cost or some sort of delrin insert I don t have a lot of design experience with dynamic movement like this so if you have any thoughts on that let me know Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink Too funny Who ever did the voice over must have gotten pretty sick of saying coupler Reminded me of my fav movie Team America but instead of dirka dirka it was coupler coupler LOL Wiki reorganisation sounds great and in great need Would love to see the pics of the commercial one there s a company that makes them here in Australia too their smallest machine is horizontal the larger ones you can t tell from the pics I ve been thrashing ideas around in my head not getting much work done at work at the moment and I basically keep coming back to a very basic design whereby the hopper sits on top of and feeds into the pre compression chamber via retractable slide the main piston moves the dirt horizontally into the compression chamber the bottom press plate is spring loaded and will push the finished brick as the main piston retracts the brick now sits in the pre compression chamber a slide retracts and the brick drops onto the feed tray With the next compression an additonal arm will push the finished brick along the feed tray ready for the next brick to drop in it s place The only issue is it involves one or two additionaly pistons to move the retractable slides and therefore potentially complicates the electronics Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier January 2012 Permalink If the proportions in the CEB press animation are at all accurate then the reason that vertical cylinder is there is you need a long column of dirt to compress into a brick and the easiest way to fill that column is to let the dirt fall into it This page quotes a 1 6 to 1 8 compression ratio Ironically for all the stuff OSE published on the CEB press I can t find its compression ratio anywhere Maybe that s just me That doesn t seem like a large enough compression ratio that it requires a vertical chamber This design proposed earlier looks superior in several ways not the least of which is it could just be put on the ground so the hopper opening is at waist height While we re on the subject of non rectilinear shapes there are plenty of space filling polyhedron that would REALLY mess with the brick layer s head D Vote Up 0 Vote Down Mike Apostol January 2012 Permalink Hey Matt that link to the other design doesn t work for me could you recheck it Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier January 2012 Permalink Fixed it Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink Hey Mat the polyhedron link resolves to www http com which is a nasty site Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink Ok fellow collaborators I think I ve got it I m thinking of a design that is basically horizontal tube has an opening for the hopper at the top on one end and the press box up the other But here s the clincher on the end of the press box is a swing away door I d originally discounted this because of the huge stresses on the door but there are many manual machines that use this method just search for interlocking brick on youtube So it s definitely possible So basically the main press cylinder is all the way back the opening for the hopper is open the dirt falls into the pre compression chamber The main cylinder moves forward closing the hopper opening and moving the dirt into the compression chamber at this point the rear door on the compression chamber is closed The brick is pressed The main cylinder contracts slightly to remove pressure off the rear door on the compression chamber the rear door is then opened The main cylinder continues to push the brick out of the compression chamber onto the delivery line The main cylinder then contracts all the way to the beginning opening the hopper door as it goes The beauty of this design is that it starts simple and if the compression chamber rear door is operated manually it only involves one main hydraulic cylinder and one control valve It will accept interlocking moulds because the two end press plates can move away from the brick To fully automate the machine it would require one more hydraulic ram to drive the rear door of the compression chamber I guess the downsides are that because the entire cycle involves the main cylinder the maximum bricks per minute would suffer But I don t see that as a huge issue Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink The only thing that needs to be ironed out is getting an accurate amount of material into the pre compression chamber From watching the youtube vids of guys making interlocking bricks they are pretty accurate with the amount of material that goes into the press box Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier January 2012 Permalink Worked for me It was an aside anyway Okay so in all designs the bricks get pushed out of some sort of cavity What if you put two blades on either side of the cavity such that they could be rotated into the path of the brick When you push the brick out you also push it against the blades slicing an angle off of each end The angles would be calculated to allow the brick to perfectly fit into an arch of a particular size If you want normal bricks just keep the blades out of the way If you want arch bricks rotate the blades into the path and the bricks will be automatically shapped when they are ejected Vote Up 0 Vote Down Mike Apostol January 2012 Permalink Matt Cutting the CEB bricks is not an easy thing to do At FeF they were having to use a circular saw Imagine it as a very solid hard material rather than dirt I don t see it being possible to push it out against static blades and get a clean cut mrsquish Yes I think the concept would work Start working on the design details and figuring out requisite tolerances and such though that s where the design may start getting tricky but that s every design haha Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier January 2012 Permalink Okay Obviously I don t have any personal experience with compressed earth how well does it flow into the mold Can you push it in kind of like injection molding or do you have to manually fill the mold with loose dirt then compress it For example lets say you take the long straight mold you d used to make a rectilinear brick but instead replace it with a rectangular crossection tube that curves a bit in one dimension If the dirt could be pushed into the curved mold it would take on a shape appropriate to arches If it could be pushed out in the same direction by the fresh dirt entering the mold then the curved mold could just be an accessorty to the normal press Vote Up 0 Vote Down Mike Apostol January 2012 Permalink The press foot part that compresses the dirt would need to travel through the curved section as it would be a linear motion though this wouldn t really be feasible The entire geometry of everything would get crazy to do what you re saying Why would you need curved pieces for arches though You could do just fine with rectangular ones and some mortar Or you could much more easily make a wedge shape that added together approximates a curve Afterwards you can go over the surface with a plaster to smooth it out and make it look like a perfect curve Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier January 2012 Permalink The foot would just travel in a straight section As long as there s enough dirt in the curved straight path to fill up the curved path when it s compressed the foot would stop at the end of the straight path Seems like curved pieces wouldn t require any mortar or bricklaying expertise which is more in keeping with the method of laying the rectangular bricks Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink Yeah Mat I m with Mike on this look it might be feasible what you are describing but you d basically have to build the entire machine around that idea which would be overkill given the amount of archways a common dwelling would have compared to normal walls I think the best option is to design a machine whereby you can change the mould the brick gets pressed into so that you can get an interlocking wedge shape The same machine could then be used to make interlocking bricks floor tiles wedge shapes I m also looking at the feasibilty of making interlocking roof tiles that could be baked in a solar kiln Mike Yeah that s the next step I m a computer programmer so using Blender should be pretty easy to pick up but I ve got no idea how to calculate tollerances and for that matter how much force is required exerted by the main hydraulic ram What I m saying is I might need some help in that department but I m assuming that tolerances wouldn t fault the basic design idea but just the materials used to implement it Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier January 2012 Permalink Like this http opensourceecology org wiki File Curved brick CEB press idea jpg Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink So I ve pretty much given up on a horizontal machine I just can t work out a simple way to provide an accurate amount of material per brick It s been going around in my head for days and I ve given up I ve found another vertical machine that I like the look of it has a very simple action http www youtube com watch v Set N CP7n0 feature related It can be partially hand operated too and has the potential for full automation I think I ll put together a design based on this one Vote Up 0 Vote Down Mike Apostol January 2012 Permalink I think the thing with the horizontal machine is that you tweak the opening size based on how far back the drawer goes So you would end up getting a bit of dirt pyramiding in the chamber but it accounts for that as being consistent so then you could actually get a pretty accurate amount of material per brick That s how the machine I sent you pictures of worked I like the one in the video too though it s a nice setup Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink Cool thanks for the guidance Mike There are some other issues with the moulds and which make the horizontal machine a bit crappy too e g like some of the mould sides would have to be the entire length of the tunnel so as to get the dirt into the press chamber accurately I guess where I m at now is I ve now found two manufacturers that make a similar machine so the basic design is tried and true I think it could be made so that it sat a little lower than in the videos I don t see why the pressbox could not be a little over two brick heights off the frame so that the hopper wasn t so high but to be honest if I need it lower I ll just bloody dig the thing into the ground I ll have an excavator so it s not a biggy I just need to design a way to feed the brick onto a delivery line But I ll start the drawings of the main machine first because the delivery line thing isn t critical Vote Up 0 Vote Down Mike Apostol January 2012 Permalink Ah yes if you re planning on side molded bricks then yep it would get rather cumbersome Ok and just don t forget the importance transportability In your design try and work out a way for integration onto a trailer it definitely makes life a lot easier Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink Sure how about wheels attached to a subframe that can be lowered or retracted by the main cylinder Need it on a trailer Put the wheels down wheel it on retract the wheels Although it would probably be a lot easier to have the wheels attached to the main frame and have a push down stand on one end I think that would provide enough stability during operation The stand would be easy to engineer and operate The downside is the wheels would add to the height I ll think on it as I m designing it Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier January 2012 Permalink You could design the legs so that they fold up down automatically when you load and unload it Like those stretchers ambulances use Here s the Ferno 93 http www cotdoc com catalog ferno stretcher parts ferno model 93 es ex parts Vote Up 0 Vote Down ChuckH January 2012 Permalink Oilseed pressing not as off topic as you think While you are working on a CEB redesign with interchangeable molds see if you can t make it also serve as an oilseed press http opensourceecology org wiki Vegetable Oil Production Vote Up 0 Vote Down Metz January 2012 Permalink you know that Dawg just did blueprints for third generation cinva ram over at OSRLiving org Vote Up 0 Vote Down mrsquish January 2012 Permalink Headed on over but can t find the details of what the third gen is all about From what I saw of the earlier versions I couldn t use them as they weren t easy to automate As far as I was aware Dawg s goal was only perfecting a manual machine whereas mine is to aim for fully automatic whilst also providing semi manual options Vote Up 0 Vote Down rich3800 January 2012 Permalink I wonder if sandy soils are suitable for compressed bricks Vote Up 0 Vote Down ChuckH January 2012 Permalink

    Original URL path: http://forum.opensourceecology.org/discussion/178/alternate-ceb-press-designs-mutual-improvements (2016-04-30)
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  • GVCS Development Cost Estimates - Open Source Ecology Forums
    and since I m already in the car component biz I get pretty good breaks on some of the essential components At the OSE HQ the shop space would be less expensive but components more expensive so I figure it s a fair guess at either location If you have any credentials that would add validity to the estimate please add them as well Oops I missed this part I lack academic creds but have developed produced a car that fits the specs two seat inexpensive high efficiency low cost and of course open source so I figure I can do it again Go to www kineticvehicles com and click the spot on the left that sends you to my Mother Earth News blog MAX Updates Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier February 2012 Permalink Hey Jack have you seen the Wikispeed car yet http www wikispeed com Vote Up 0 Vote Down JackMcCornack February 2012 Permalink Yes Matt it s got one of the thirty or so cars of interest links on http opensourceecology org wiki Car Research Development You d think MAX would be on the list wouldn t you Vote Up 0 Vote Down aaronmakaruk February 2012 Permalink Hey Jack Thanks for taking the time to fill this out I appreciate it Aaron Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier February 2012 Permalink Haha yeah I added that link D Add a Comment Howdy Stranger It looks like you re new here If you want to get involved click one of these buttons Sign In Apply for Membership Categories All Discussions 1 013 General Discussion 895 Introductions 145 GVCS Development 43 GVCS Replication 14 Similar Projects Partnerships and Open Culture 53 In the News 14 Education 15 Food 18 Energy 42 Health 2 Sustainable Architecture 21

    Original URL path: http://forum.opensourceecology.org/discussion/593/gvcs-development-cost-estimates (2016-04-30)
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  • Unimog shop books? - Open Source Ecology Forums
    013 General Discussion 895 Introductions 145 GVCS Development 43 GVCS Replication 14 Similar Projects Partnerships and Open Culture 53 In the News 14 Education 15 Food 18 Energy 42 Health 2 Sustainable Architecture 21 Transportation 10 Household 6 IT Web Infrastructure 110 Shared Personal Notes 1 New Communities 10 Other Languages 34 Project Management 4 Proposal and Development Status 10 Organizational Development 26 Team Logs 4 OSE Core Team 1 OSE IT Core Team 2 OSE Collaboration Platform Core Team 6 Resource Development 3 GVCS Technical Development 52 Open Source Car 10 Open Source Tractor 1 Gasifier Burner 1 CNC Torch Table 5 Agricultural Microcombine 4 Dimensional Sawmill 1 Documentation and Instructionals 18 OSE Dev 0 Trucktor 0 Microtrac 0 CNC Router 0 CNC Torch Table 0 Bulldozer 0 Backhoe 0 Car 0 3D Printer 0 3D Printer Laser Diode 0 Tractor 0 Powercube 0 Brick Press Controller 0 In this Discussion Metz December 2011 Loading Open Source Ecology Forums Discussions All Categories General Discussion 357 Introductions 145 GVCS Development 43 GVCS Replication 14 Similar Projects Partnerships and Open Culture 53 In the News 14 Education 15 Food 18 Energy 42 Health 2 Sustainable Architecture 21 Transportation 10 Household 6

    Original URL path: http://forum.opensourceecology.org/discussion/571/unimog-shop-books (2016-04-30)
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  • Open Source Car - Open Source Ecology Forums
    2012 Specs for Open Source Car 42 comments Most recent by spike May 2012 Open Source Car Comments 5 Views 669 Follows 5 Votes 0 OS Car project management 6 comments Most recent by Bob Stuart March 2012 Open Source Car Comments 5 Views 317 Follows 6 Votes 0 Open Source Car interesting and cheap desing by a teenager 6 comments Most recent by elifarley February 2012 Open Source Car Comments 1 Views 650 Follows 0 Votes 0 Donor Vehicles 2 comments Most recent by JackMcCornack December 2011 Open Source Car Howdy Stranger It looks like you re new here If you want to get involved click one of these buttons Sign In Apply for Membership Categories All Discussions 1 013 General Discussion 895 Introductions 145 GVCS Development 43 GVCS Replication 14 Similar Projects Partnerships and Open Culture 53 In the News 14 Education 15 Food 18 Energy 42 Health 2 Sustainable Architecture 21 Transportation 10 Household 6 IT Web Infrastructure 110 Shared Personal Notes 1 New Communities 10 Other Languages 34 Project Management 4 Proposal and Development Status 10 Organizational Development 26 Team Logs 4 OSE Core Team 1 OSE IT Core Team 2 OSE Collaboration Platform Core Team 6 Resource Development 3 GVCS Technical Development 52 Open Source Car 10 Open Source Tractor 1 Gasifier Burner 1 CNC Torch Table 5 Agricultural Microcombine 4 Dimensional Sawmill 1 Documentation and Instructionals 18 OSE Dev 0 Trucktor 0 Microtrac 0 CNC Router 0 CNC Torch Table 0 Bulldozer 0 Backhoe 0 Car 0 3D Printer 0 3D Printer Laser Diode 0 Tractor 0 Powercube 0 Brick Press Controller 0 Popular Tags wiki 27 ceb 21 solar 18 gvcs 17 energy 15 cad 14 water 11 cnc 11 3d 10 software 8 introduction 8 christian 8 community 7 collaboration 7 open

    Original URL path: http://forum.opensourceecology.org/categories/open-source-car (2016-04-30)
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  • CarBEN EV5: @NeilBlanchard 's Open Source Electric Car - Open Source Ecology Forums
    a prototype and it should be able to be driven on the roads and insured etc A car is not a building and even buildings with less than certain occupancy can have one means of egress In a home the second means of egress from a bedroom is most often a window CarBEN EV5 has windows I cannot solve all the problems and all designs are compromise I am trying not to compromise on efficiency which is usually the last thing on the list So less convenience if it allows for greater efficiency is a good thing This car will get at least 200MPGe and might even get 300 350MPGe It might be the most efficient car ever built and certainly could be the most efficient 5 seat car ever It will travel 300 400 miles on a single charge and has the potential with new batteries like the DBM Energy Kolibri Hummingbird battery to go twice as far as that on a single charge Once I build it and test it and live with it for a while and maybe build a few more generations of prototypes then I ll get to crash testing it Neil Vote Up 0 Vote Down eukreign November 2011 Permalink Neil don t let our criticism deter you from your progress You can always add doors later and redesign anything as necessary I can t imagine that adding a door later would cut performance enough to have to start from scratch What kind of drive train are you thinking for this vehicle Vote Up 0 Vote Down Allen15 November 2011 Permalink Something to keep in mind also is that there may still be an X Prize of sorts for accomplishing this I haven t recently checked but there used to be an X prize specifically for a high efficiency automobile although it only had a goal requirement of 100 MPGe or better it did have the requirement that it would have to be something that would be possible to go into production meaning that it would meet current road safety standards and still cost low enough to be a practical auto for a family car not something in the Tesla sports car range I don t believe that anyone has ever won that one so it may still be up for grabs but OTOH it may also mean that you have some other competition in that arena you aren t aware of because it is not likely that any of the others would be open source Vote Up 0 Vote Down NeilBlanchard November 2011 Permalink I am going to use an all electric drivetrain probably dual direct drive motors on the front wheels and the battery pack in the floor I was planning on working with FVT who had their eVaro at the X Prize The CarBEN EV5 drawings and SketchUp model show the EiG cells that FVT uses and their twin motor drivetrain It gets 100 of the braking power from regenerative braking

    Original URL path: http://forum.opensourceecology.org/discussion/268/carben-ev5-neilblanchard-039s-open-source-electric-car (2016-04-30)
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  • NeilBlanchard - Open Source Ecology Forums
    All Categories General Discussion 357 Introductions 145 GVCS Development 43 GVCS Replication 14 Similar Projects Partnerships and Open Culture 53 In the News 14 Education 15 Food 18 Energy 42 Health 2 Sustainable Architecture 21 Transportation 10 Household 6 IT Web Infrastructure 110 Shared Personal Notes 1 New Communities 10 Other Languages 3 Discussões em Português 20 Ecovilas 2 Discussions en Français 2 Обсуждения в Россию 1 Discusiones en Español

    Original URL path: http://forum.opensourceecology.org/profile/1377/NeilBlanchard (2016-04-30)
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  • Agile 2012: Team Wikispeed - Open Source Ecology Forums
    Membership Categories All Discussions 1 013 General Discussion 895 Introductions 145 GVCS Development 43 GVCS Replication 14 Similar Projects Partnerships and Open Culture 53 In the News 14 Education 15 Food 18 Energy 42 Health 2 Sustainable Architecture 21 Transportation 10 Household 6 IT Web Infrastructure 110 Shared Personal Notes 1 New Communities 10 Other Languages 34 Project Management 4 Proposal and Development Status 10 Organizational Development 26 Team Logs 4 OSE Core Team 1 OSE IT Core Team 2 OSE Collaboration Platform Core Team 6 Resource Development 3 GVCS Technical Development 52 Open Source Car 10 Open Source Tractor 1 Gasifier Burner 1 CNC Torch Table 5 Agricultural Microcombine 4 Dimensional Sawmill 1 Documentation and Instructionals 18 OSE Dev 0 Trucktor 0 Microtrac 0 CNC Router 0 CNC Torch Table 0 Bulldozer 0 Backhoe 0 Car 0 3D Printer 0 3D Printer Laser Diode 0 Tractor 0 Powercube 0 Brick Press Controller 0 In this Discussion jesspinto March 2013 Loading Open Source Ecology Forums Discussions All Categories General Discussion 357 Introductions 145 GVCS Development 43 GVCS Replication 14 Similar Projects Partnerships and Open Culture 53 In the News 14 Education 15 Food 18 Energy 42 Health 2 Sustainable Architecture

    Original URL path: http://forum.opensourceecology.org/discussion/914/agile-2012-team-wikispeed (2016-04-30)
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  • open source truck - Open Source Ecology Forums
    good idea specifically if it is portable powered from a powercube or the further hydraulic power systems life track truck Wheel units that function identically would be the most straight forward to mass produce That would mean that every wheel unit was independently suspended and steerable The crew cab unit could have a control panel that allowed the driver to select which combination of wheel units they wanted to activate with each control So they could switch between a two front wheel steering mode and all wheel steering mode or anything in between Brilliant Idea but not exactly easy Rear steer is possible using a full hydraulic steering but many it is not feasible to allow a vehicle as large as a car or truck to turn around in its own length as smaller robots and rc cars can If hydraulic actuators could be used as shock absorbers then a damaged or flat tire could be forced to lift up and off of the ground That would not only mean it wasn t dragging during driving but also that you wouldn t need an external jack to change tires On anything other than a 6 wheeled vehicle this would not work it may be possible with some more functions but more work is required If hydraulics are used a takeoff powering an external jack it seems much more practical The upper wishbone of the wheel units assuming they use double wishbone could be made out of threaded rod and turnbuckles That would allow the relative dimensions of the suspension in the wheel unit to vary between equal length wishbones long travel off road and unequal length short travel on road by bringing the upper wishbone frame mounting points closer to the wheel It seems that a lot of things stated in the requirements are not equivalent with others But again as a set of ideas to build a truck goes this is possible There is a design called the rock dog that should be looked at Each wheel unit could have a hydraulic motor mounted on a pivot point with a spline shaft and a universal joint providing torque to the wheel hub I don t understand this statement at all Hydraulic steering is possible so is having a hydraulic motor on each wheel for power but the motos must be mounted onto the body chassis The wheel unit could easily be changed from fixed to steerable by swapping out a turnbuckle for a small hydraulic actuator If two wheel units are going to be steered together than an alternative would be connecting them across the body of the vehicle via a shared steering mechanism Steering them separately would be more expensive but would allow on the fly Ackerman steering It would also allow 4 wheel steering which has a number of important advantages Interesting idea and very possible however the need to change bits over each time just seems impractical better yet leave the system in place all the time and use a valve to shut down the rear steer A cheaper option for the rear end is a single ended ram on each end of the vehicle 9 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added Vote Up 0 Vote Down Ned Ludd May 2012 Permalink There has been debate before on this forum about conformity with legal requirements but it predates my involvement My view is that the nature of existing regulatory structures is widely misunderstood specifically as to their relationship to existing political economic power structures The common view of regulatory structures as manifestation of a condition of opposition between Government and industry is false Rather regulatory structures are the mechanism by which the corporate mass producer effectively becomes an organ of the State And it must be understood that the very concept of a wide based open source alternative is antithetical to the resulting nefarious synthesis In less highfalutin language the system is going to fight back It will tolerate us only in so far as we are chasing our own tails In so far as we are getting it right we may expect to be opposed not only with the threat of violence but also with very sophisticated spin A lot of what comes out of the processes going on here will be illegal in the exact proportion that it is of use to anyone A few things in the above post resort under chasing our own tails mostly in the quoted bits There seems to be some confusion about what the nature of the product is to be Wheel units that function identically would be the most straight forward to mass produce for instance I thought the purpose of the exercise was to come up with an alternative to mass production What would the point be otherwise It seems a lot of the thinking here is still in terms of delivering a physical product It makes more sense to me that the product consists entirely of information moreover information that will soon take the form of floating social commons It is that unprecedented move that excites me creating designed vernacular knowledge But if this is to succeed it must be able to work the way vernacular knowledge works That is it will be used in whole or in part only to the extent that it finds a use and it cannot maintain an effective separation from prior or subsequent vernacular knowledge There is no point in drawing a line around the various parts of this project to keep them together in a specific and special identity In so far as the various parts find use they will do so as parts They will emphatically not do so as a system That is why I believe some here are overemphasizing the systemic and modular aspects It may be a difficult mental leap to put aside the notion of type as precise determinant which is a creature of the social pervasiveness of mass production I think you are seeing it that every example of whatever is built according to or rather under the influence of these designs will be to some significant extent unique Some may hardly bear any resemblance at all and it is the ability of the designs to tap into those processes and not resist them that will determine their success Thus the existence of a cohesive background system of related designs might very well be quite irrelevant to the vast majority of actual builds and what use is modularity then Personally I see no point in powering a truck by a Powercube when eight out of ten builders are going to modify the design around the unwanted Rambler 304 or whatever behind the shed I d much rather see a design that anticipates and accommodates as much of that as possible in the most creative ways Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier May 2012 Permalink I thought the purpose of the exercise was to come up with an alternative to mass production What would the point be otherwise Nope Not only is mass production a good thing specialization of labor is one of the keys to civilization but it would be utterly impossible for the GVCS to exist in any practical sense without replacing human labor with engines No one is going to hand build a useful engine So at a minimum anyone who wants to implement the GVCS is going to have to buy and maintain one or more engines Anyone who has access to engines and the parts tools necessary to maintain them also has access to the global marketplace That means they can take advantage of economies of scale by using the same identical modular pieces that everyone else is using By making them generic they become commodities and manufacturers will compete on price and availability That does not mean they should be complicated it just means they should be multi function and standardized Also from a system level point of view the GVCS has assumed mass production from the beginning All the machines are supposed to be designed with mass produced stock materials and some of the machines are supposed to mass produce those stock materials on a small scale So no avoiding mass production has never been a goal The point is to process the world s raw materials into the stuff of civilization more efficiently and more locally It seems a lot of the thinking here is still in terms of delivering a physical product It makes more sense to me that the product consists entirely of information Someone has to built it eventually otherwise it won t do anyone any good So why would anyone build it if the people who designed it never bothered to build it themselves The GVCS is supposed to provide an economic benefit Well that means it should pay for itself If no one builds it then they must not think it would pay for itself which means no one else will bother to build it either Also most of the GVCS is heavy machinery It would be irresponsible to suggest that someone use it without rigorously testing it first In so far as the various parts find use they will do so as parts They will emphatically not do so as a system That is why I believe some here are overemphasizing the systemic and modular aspects I agree that the GVCS will first be adopted as individual machines or small groups of complimentary machines However the modularity is a key part of improving efficiency locality and freedom There will ALWAYS be for profit entities happy to design sell and maintain a machine that does one thing very very well And you will pay them very very well for that one machine However many of the machines we depend on are useless in isolation they are part of an ecology of machines Most of our machines need to maximize the performance of a system not their own performance If we start from scratch and design universal solutions for some of the most basic and common machine tasks the overall efficiency of the whole system will increase If all OSE does is design simple versions of existing machines it will be just another business OSE s contribution should be doing the hard complicated un heralded work that no for profit organization would ever do Personally I see no point in powering a truck by a Powercube when eight out of ten builders are going to modify the design around the unwanted Rambler 304 or whatever behind the shed I d much rather see a design that anticipates and accommodates as much of that as possible in the most creative ways That s what designing the truck to run on a removable engine does It means they can just not buy a power cube if they want to use some other power source Vote Up 0 Vote Down spike May 2012 Permalink ok this is a lot of information to get though and theres no quote button ned I see where your coming from with the gubberment and stuff BUT we are looking at building a civilisation we shouldnt look at the civilised world but more like Africa some places where laws barely exist cars made of wood etc its all relative OSE as far as i can see doesn t want to stop mass production as matt says above me What we do want to stop limit is the cash flow going to people who own the market if you read the cost comparison you will see the differences between our costs and the inflated prices of large companies As for this only being a plan everything starts as a plan and when its finalised i will try and get some funding to build one or stay in permanent contact with someone else building it matt something has occurred to me that will require more information the running of a hydraulic motor in reverse Im not sure if its actually possible but i will have to do some further research Atm im thinking an IC engine preferably diesel running the front wheels only This could run a hydraulic system that powered the rear wheels aswell making it 4wd when needed and giving a massive amount of power take off now breakfast time before i blow my mind Vote Up 0 Vote Down Ned Ludd May 2012 Permalink Matt Specialization of labour etc does not in itself imply mass production Nor is economies of scale a phenomenon that is just there unitary and exempt of critique Taking economies of scale apart is quite a revealing exercise when one begins to consider the relationship of method to systems of social and economic power etc Yes there is such a thing but it isn t the universal cost solution it s blindly thought to be Economies of scale are only economies if one can find a sucker to pay for the other 9 999 999 exemplars Note that pay for doesn t necessarily mean buy A huge chunk of taxes go to paying for surplus output Defense budgets are only the most obvious example I don t expect them to deliver my 1 3768 of a jet fighter soon Nor is mass production ecologically neutral ultimately mass production is the sole cause of the present ecological crisis Eliminating mass production is the primary core solution the only way to achieve stable sustainability a tautology I know but the latter term has become unclear through abuse The market magnifying effect of the mass production system is not widely understood Incremental efficiencies will get us nowhere even the most monastic austerity would get us barely a quarter of the way if the necessary tyranny doesn t spur revolution first Spike The third world doesn t conform to the image people elsewhere have of it It isn t ungoverned if anything it is as overgoverned as anywhere else just not very consistently Nor is it uncivilized there is no need to introduce civilization there If anything the African in particular is too civilized and values social relations to the detriment of our barbaric preoccupation with machinery At the risk of generalizing the African engineer would sooner chair the board of an engineering institute than do engineering make of that what you will but it does not speak of barbarism I do not see the greater need for this in the third world Where methods exist that do not require machinery let them continue In fact would that we learn some of that We need to find respect for non industrial method lest we fail to see its inherent efficiency I do not say pre industrial because there is a questionable historic implication in the term though we can learn as much from our own history as from the residual methodology of the third world No I see the greater need among ourselves in the so called West These are solutions to the crises of our own context We are in the midst of a crisis of the State which is only rarely understood clearly to be an edifice built around and for the practices of mass production Read Ellul Read Carson Earth moving equipment for Africa would only dig the hole deeper if you ll excuse the pun I agree with both of you that it is necessary to test the designs perhaps more rigorously than usual even in the light of the fact that one would be dealing not so much with a prototype in the conventional sense as a sort of practical seminal suggestion It makes the job harder Vote Up 0 Vote Down Matt Maier May 2012 Permalink spike Atm im thinking an IC engine preferably diesel running the front wheels only This could run a hydraulic system that powered the rear wheels aswell Yeah a reversed hydraulic motor is a hydraulic pump Some of the more complex hydraulic motors are exactly the same design as the pumps they work equally well in both directions ned ludd Specialization of labour etc does not in itself imply mass production Sure it does What do you think a farm is One guy learns how to grow corn REALLY well so he makes all the corn for everyone No one else has to buy any corn making equipment or learn about the latest corn related insects etc It works as long as other people are specializing in the other necessities and mass producing them for everyone That s civilization You can thank mass production for all the stuff people do in their free time like invent things and produce art Nor is economies of scale a phenomenon that is just there unitary and exempt of critique Sure anything can be overdone but the fact that things become more efficient at larger scales is just mathematics It s only a matter of growing the denominator Economies of scale are only economies if one can find a sucker to pay for the other 9 999 999 exemplars Note that pay for doesn t necessarily mean buy A huge chunk of taxes go to paying for surplus output Defense budgets are only the most obvious example I don t expect them to deliver my 1 3768 of a jet fighter soon I didn t follow any of that Could you restate it Nor is mass production ecologically neutral Nor is ANYTHING ecologically neutral ultimately mass production is the sole cause of the present ecological crisis Haha yeah mass production of people If anything the African in particular is too civilized and values social relations to the detriment of our barbaric preoccupation with machinery I don t think civilized means the same thing to you as it does to me Personally I don t think you get to call someone civilized just because they re nice to a few people they know That s just tribal It is Africa s

    Original URL path: http://forum.opensourceecology.org/discussion/786/open-source-truck (2016-04-30)
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