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  • Talk.Creole 0.4
    11 I d like to add an argument to reverseing the link syntax from url description to description url as our experience from writing large texts in Wikipedia Syntax is that long links make the wikipedia syntax almost completely unreadable and quite hard to work with otherwise Martin Häcker 12 Jan 2007 I added your proposal to AlternateLinkSyntaxProposal along with advantages and disadvantages ChuckSmith 2007 Jan 17 I would suggest to distinguish left and right align text in table cells like left aligned centered right aligned No new markup syntax is necessary and it s quite intuitive JoachimStolberg 2007 Jan 23 I agree with Martijn a multiline version of placeholder would be very useful I d suggest the following syntax org domain app arbitrary data It could be filtered by interpreters like PHP and Sysquake Remote and used for applications similar to Mathematica notebooks or literate programming where code is mixed with text With globally unique identifiers multiple filters could be applied without conflicts YvesPiguet 2007 Jan 24 Why not just use anything goes I mean you can put newlines inside the placegolder the only forbidden sequence is OTOH I always understood that a placeholder would only hold something like 1 or a MD5 hash of the content or something like that and the rest is remembered by the engine Maybe we should take care of preparing some recommendations for non Creole syntax But that can wait for when we have the core fairly stable On a second thought maybe we should remove the placeholder from the spec too and leave it as a recommendation RadomirDopieralski 2007 01 24 I was also thinking about removing the placeholder from the spec Chuck Smith 2007 Jan 24 I d prefer a safe way to identify the placeholder contents so that applications know whether they re meant to them without having to guess Radomir s proposition would make difficult to embed C or Java code a line containing only is much less likely YvesPiguet 2007 Jan 24 I don t care about the existence of the placeholder one way or another BUT I do care about a plugin or module syntax Most wikis I know have some sort of plugin or module system which allows a user to insert the result of the plugin into the page s contents I am planning on using the something syntax for plugins but I am still wondering about how to put in parameters I agree with Yves that I d like a safe way for the placeholder contents to be interpreted If this drops out of the Creole spec I ll implement it anyway having it in the spec would have my preference though MartijnVanDerKleijn 2007 01 25 Feel free to create a proposal page RadomirDopieralski 2007 01 25 Martijn I think the same way about that I would like to use it as a plugin syntax in creole This special markup tells a reader that knows creole that this is something he can overlook That

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Creole0.4 (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Creole 0.5
    names inside the brackets be written with spaces being stripped as it works in this wiki here is this prohibitied or is this left to the engine 2 The sequence of display text and page name page name coming first makes text difficult to read has this been discussed Perhaps it should be stated explicitly see Link Extensibility Proposal 3 Regarding Placeholder Please elaborate I don t understand GregorHagedorn 2007 02 26 1 This is left to the engine 2 see AlternateLinkSyntaxProposal 3 see Prototype ChristophSauer 2007 02 26 I m currently implementing a wiki parser and have made the following observations With the current bold markup you cannot start a line with bold text it will be interpreted as a bullet This is not uncommon and adding a space before to escape feels unnecessarily clumsy I m not sure what a good solution would be here I agree with the should not be confused with underline argument against double underscores In plain text I often use hyphens for unordered lists but several hyphens in a row feel strange too The double slashes still are visual triggers for URIs for me What were the arguments against double tilde squiggly underlines are often used to indicate italics in handwriting They should be included in http wikicreole org wiki BoldAndItalicsReasoning Apart from that Creole mixes really well with Latex syntax which I allow for advanced tasks and transform to internally AxelRauschmayer 2007 02 27 Axel you are not the only one who has trouble with this You will find an answer to your question in the Hyphen List Markup Proposal Please support this proposal if you think that it will solve your issues by leaving a note in the discussion raise your voice For the italics I originally was on your side

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Creole0.5 (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Creole 0.6
    on escape characters and hyphens for lists wasn t reached And picking half of the proposal to split nowiki and monospace makes little sense to me I ask to postpone Creole 0 6 or to discard it entirely YvesPiguet 2007 Apr 4 Does anyone else oppose 0 6 If so I can postpone it ChuckSmith 2007 Apr 4 1 I maintain my criticism of the definition about the scope where tilde is supposed to escape a the limitation seems artificial since tilde is not more frequent than many other reserved character combinations most notably the leading hyphen leading equal signs or the double backslash which being a Microsoft path escape will occur in many discussions on Microsoft Office NB I consider the exceptions to double forward slash similarly artificial but much more harmless b the rules are so complex that it would be severaly tax my programming power to properly convert existing Wiki content to a new wiki that uses Creole I realise that this is a personal limitation but I still consider it possible that others will feel similar c the tilde will most likely be re used by Wikis using mixed Creole plus native markup This makes the complex scope rules even more complex and in Wikis that support CamelCase links the rule would include all tilde alphabetical character making a scoping rule essentially worthless I propose the tilde to be reserved as escape character requiring all tilde in the content to be escaped through double tilde Without this content migration from mixed mode Creole Wiki A to Creole Wiki B will become a nightmare trying to figure out which tilde in the content used to be escaping and which is content If we have serious objections I propose to use double tilde as escape marker 2 I have quite a bit of reservation why we do not require a blank after the OL UL hyphen or number sign as proposed in Radomir s arguments at the start of Talk HyphenListMarkupProposal and in RequireSpaceAfterBulletProposal albeit focussing on asterisks Sorry to bring this up again but I took the pain to read through Talk RequireSpaceAfterBulletProposal and 95 of te discussion has focussed on technical issues on parsers programning and ambiguity issues like bullets versus bold The discussion I would like to see is about making it simple and intuitive and readability for users which was a major argument in the original proposal I personally find bullet plus blank much more intuitive and readable markup sequence It would make the Creole specs simpler not requiring us to explain two alternative ways of list markup The one argument that is relevant here is that Chuck made a wikipedia study resulting in 50 50 chance of either markup I wonder whether this decisive enough or is due to wikipedia experts I challenge everybody to take a look yourself using the random article function and going into edit mode which style is more visible and readable And look at your own emails which style is being used there To me giving both options is two different rules perhaps because unlike most whitespace rules in Creole and in fact all Wikis I know this does not correspond to html xml whitespace normalization I consider this an argument for being intuitive to a lot of readers not a technical argument The difference between X and X or X and X seems to be intuitively significant Do we really have to support both alternative markup styles Gregor Hagedorn 2007 04 04 My position in regard to escape character and hyphen lists is still the same I don t feel convinced we need an universal escape character at all maybe we do maybe we don t we should state the problem we are trying to solve with it and look at various solutions including but not limited to the escape character Introducing this markup solely for the purpose of making other proposed markup acceptable does fire some warning signals maybe if it was proposed in a different situation the reaction would be different Escaping rules if used should be made as braindead simple as possible at all Making them intuitive just doesn t work every user has different intuition Implementing the escape character in the way proposed in 0 6 is not possible with the approach used in the MoinMoin plugin currently so I would have to basically rewrite it from scratch While I m pretty much sure that the quality of code would rise tremendously in the process I don t think I would have enough free time in large chunks to actually do it in near future This is not a threat of any kind or a reason for me arguing against it it s just a fact Of course if the escape character is really that superior we should by all means do it Code is cheap relatively I love the signle hyphens for lists especially after watching the results of user activity both on the Sylabus wiki and on the wikis prepared for TheStudentExperiment However the multiple hyphens for nested lists markup is totally unacceptable to me it s new and confusing One solution would be to choose different markup for nesting another forbid nesting altogether or even propose a different markup for nested lists in the additions Of course asterisks are nice too and changing the conflict with bold seems like too little a reason for changing the markup entirely I would be glad to see whitespace required after bullets no matter what we use for the lists But I argued this point enough and will not come back to it unless there is any new material to consider Lets beware of complicating Creole incrementally as our code base grows we want more programmers to jump in and we want to ease their job and remove barriers How many active programmers does Creole have now how many of them wait for the target to stop moving or even have given up completely

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Creole0.6 (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Creole 0.6 Poll
    time for reactions before starting the poll Having few options had two goals clear results which let us unblock the situation and go forward without introducing endless discussions and subjective interpretations discarding possibilities which nobody wants To illustrate the second point it s like choosing the background and forground color between black and white I d propose to choose between black on white or white on black the current poll is like choosing independtly the foreground and background color with the risk of some votes for black foreground some for black background and none or weak ones for white background or foreground What do we do with the result black on black So the current poll will bring many opinions most of them already expressed which will have to be interpreted It s started already What a loss of time and energy Since I ve stated my opinion many times including with the first poll I won t bother to answer Was it done on purpose I guess so Saying first that my attempt was overly complicated what six possible answers for a single question yes or no is enough then thoughtlessly restrictive we need 32 different results no less is funny isn t it What we re missing is a chairman whose authority and fairness everyone trust Informal discussions of wiki show their limits PS if I look slightly irritated it s probably because I am YvesPiguet 2007 Apr 12 I am really sorry Yves I didn t want to criticize you in any way You did the right move You startet us get moving by getting the poll out the way you did it made it already clear how the poll should look like It was the first iteration and this way you did almost all the work here Chuck and me only modified it to a more common format Stating the opinions here again in a more compact format is good it finally gives us an overview One page that shows us how everybody thinks Then your approach comes next I am learning by doing here and by trapping into all the pitfalls like inadvertently irritating people I wish we could have a chairman like Ward Cunningham or someone that has alot more experience with moderating groups like Eugene Kim Yves please accept my apologies ChristophSauer 2007 Apr 12 Accepted thanks YvesPiguet 2007 Apr 12 Moved List nesting level poll to discussion The conversation below is the archived conversation from the poll itself List nesting level Why should we discuss that here Has anyone written a proposal about it Am I missing something here If not we should not vote about this point yet It s a waste of time I would like to remove this Axel please don t take it personal ChristophSauer Please feel free to remove it I really do not want to cause trouble I was just curious if I really was the only one who liked this idea my proposal is at

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Creole0.6Poll (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Creole 0.6 Poll Archive
    Apr 10 I agree with Yves I d say NO to both proposals too It s not about which character to use mind you the Hyphen List Markup Proposal make quite a few assumptions including a particular implementation of the escape character Besides simply changing the character to be used doesn t really solve anything OTOH voting no to hyphens seems to imply that I m against using hyphens for lists at all which is simply not true Then again the poll seems to be a little complicated Maybe we should prepare a Yet Another List Markup Proposal and vote Or just choose between them Creole 0 5 Require Space After Bullet Proposal Hyphen List Markup Proposal Escape Character Proposal By the way nobody made an Indented Nested Lists Proposal so I guess we are safe to skip them Radomir Dopieralski 2007 Apr 10 This poll seems way too complicated If wiki developers can t submit their votes something is wrong Could you simplify this poll so we could get a better feeling of opinions about 0 6 Chuck Smith 2007 Apr 10 If it s too simple the result will be no I don t know whether you object to the openness or to the use of tables Please do whatever you want to this poll removing columns lines or the page itself YvesPiguet 2007 Apr 10 What do you mean by the result being no I don t object to the openness but I object to the complexity of the poll It s so confusing that even if we get answers I think they will be impossible to analyze Chuck Smith 2007 Apr 10 If we want a consensus since I ve rejected both the hyphen list and the escape character proposal and so has Radomir we won

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Creole0.6PollArchive (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Creole 0.7
    Creole ignoring hashbangs after the former adds completeness By the way The Student Experiment is largely a failure since the classes were Introduction to Programming most of the wiki content is pasted perl code the students didn t bother to comment their solutions or document anything on the wiki I will be making the content available anyways Radomir Dopieralski 2007 Apr 24 Yves Piguet addressed the following questions on 2007 Apr 24 Since there hasn t been a consensus on hyphens shouldn t stars the last choice in a stable version be maintained There was indeed a consensus on hyphens at the WikiSym workshop in Denmark with which we decided to overrule by putting asterisks instead into the spec for bullet lists Changing the spec to hyphens was a correction of our misjudgement Why discarding current proposals which aren t rejected E g MultilineListItems CodeHighlightingProposal I d propose something more general for meta information Most wikis can t handle multiline list items so this would require a massive rewriting of wiki engines and is thus outside the scope of Creole The code highlighting proposal describes a very specific display of meta data and is thus also outside the scope of Creole Interwiki I believed that link format was outside the scope of Creole We have always had a link format in Creole so I don t see how it is outside the scope of it Chuck Smith 25 Apr 2007 Then I don t see why we ve spent so much time to discuss it if WikiSym has such a larger weight Is it a definitive decision or is it open to discussion Declaring that for some cases Creole should be compatible with some wiki engines to avoid massive rewriting but not caring in other cases e g preformatted blocks which are incompatible with Mediawiki a wise decision imo is totally arbitrary Accepting line breaks in paragraphs and not in list items just doesn t make any sense and there shouldn t be a big difference in the implementation I meant the link target syntax itself not the markup around it YvesPiguet 2007 Apr 25 Regarding 1 The Creole 0 6 Poll here backed up the decision at the WMS workshop regarding hyphens On the other hand we have discarded the WMS workshop decision on line breaks here by introducing line break characters The fight about the linebreaks was hard as well ChristophSauer 2007 04 25 I was not present at the workshop on WikiSym but heard summaries from several persons and as far as I know the was also a consensus to only allow one level of nesting of these hyphen lists Correct me if I m wrong Also are there any materials from the actual workshop available or do we have to try blindly and wait for those who were present to comment on things It s kind of strange having to follow rules that are secret and only revealed when actually useful Radomir Dopieralski 200 Apr 25

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Creole0.7 (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Creole 1.0 Poll
    BY SA Sponsored by the Wiki Symposium and the Nuveon GmbH view find Quick search type ahead Recent Searches Clear Talk Creole 1 0 Poll Your trail Talk Creole0 5 Home Talk Creole0 6 Home Talk Creole0 6Poll Home Talk Creole0 6PollArchive Home Talk Creole0 7 Home View Page Discussion V iew A ttach I nfo Responding to Christoph s comment about Escape character should escape whole Creole markup sequences You don t need to use even with the single escape character is enough to invalidate the regular heading sequence because of the new line rules for headings Same applies to the other block items For inline items single escape character works too except the one case where three characters are reduced down to two could be accidently treated as an image but I think that s getting close to the edges Preformatted should be enough for the times where it might be required MarkWharton 2007 05 03 And single char escape permits to have a single bold star with The possible confusion with images is much less likely than when the author just forgets a left brace in a nowiki construct which we implicitly accept I won t repeat

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Creole1.0Poll (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Creole Core And Additions Proposal
    BY SA Sponsored by the Wiki Symposium and the Nuveon GmbH view find Quick search type ahead Recent Searches Clear Talk Creole Core And Additions Proposal Your trail Talk Creole0 6 Home Talk Creole0 6Poll Home Talk Creole0 6PollArchive Home Talk Creole0 7 Home Talk Creole1 0Poll Home View Page Discussion V iew A ttach I nfo I think we could make a page for this with the basic set

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.CreoleCoreAndAdditionsProposal (2016-02-11)
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