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  • Talk.Proportional Font Nowiki Proposal
    my subconscious logic I like my proposal Changing image markup seems acceptable What do others think Gregor Hagedorn 2007 03 27 Why would you have to change the image markup Chuck Smith 2007 Mar 28 Because the foo would be then used for proportional font nowiki Radomir Dopieralski 2007 Mar 27 Thinking about this a bit more I would first define no wiki all markup is ignored no wiki span all markup in the span is ignored no wiki character the following character including punctation is not interpreted as markup pre a no wiki span where blanks and new lines are significant rendered in non proportional font My priorities would be we need a pre element currently triple brace we need a no wiki span not affecting any formatting fixed font in the middle of text looks stupid and creates undesired emphasis also future creole versions may allow nested formatting I accidentially proposed double brace for this we need a no wiki character for convenience currently tilde As to formatting non pre text in non proportional font the most logical approach would be to have some markup for this In my mind the best approach for this would be to define some basic markup that then can be extended to cover a lot such special cases including superscript subscript underline fixed font etc see Extensible Formatting Element Proposal However at the moment triple brace has two modes on line of its own it is a proper PRE element whereas when used inline it acts as no wiki plus non proportional font Although making Creole slightly more complicated this behaviour is fully logical and I see no reason to abandon it I believe this addresses the second problem Radomir was mentioning Is this correct Gregor Hagedorn 2007 04 01 Is this NotNew Has anyone of you ever checked if other wikis are using a similar concepts and how they do it It makes no sense to introduce new markup into the spec before this has been checked I therefore reject any changes until you give me figures Christoph Sauer 2007 04 03 Monospace http www wikimatrix org syntax php i 26 x 49 y 15 Nowiki No Wiki Markup Comparison Pre and Escape character already accepted in Creole This is about users being able to use and remember this particular creole language Mixing elements from different languages in a creole language will not normally lead to illogical grammar but the choice will be guided and typical for a creole language as opposed to a pidgin language new concepts will be added that make the language internally consistent Gregor Hagedorn 2007 04 04 The current 0 5 inline nowiki seems to have a big problem at least as it works in WikiCreole it prevents wordwrap I can t find any reason why one would like a line with nowiki to overflow in the right margin be it with monospace or proportional font Nonbreaking spaces might be desirable but their effect would be

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.ProportionalFontNowikiProposal (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Quoting
    weren t The same goes for indented blocks There are many uses for such things other than block quotations including as Radomir points out indicating threading structure There would be no need to abuse blockquote for this purpose if there were an indented block tag with semantics indicating thread structure but again experience shows that markup languages can t really cover all possible semantic bases Markdown s use of on every line is clever as it is fully consistent with email and makes the indentation very clear when reading the raw text but I think it lacks in the usability department especially as many editing contexts don t make the distinction between hard and soft newline explicit and confusion about this will almost inevitably lead to unexpected markup characters leaking into the text My vote is for to distinguish it from Markdown style quoting and also to follow the example of OddMuse Another related question is whether we should support curly quotes If so I don t think following the example of the HTML q tag is the best way to do it One possibility is to follow LaTeX and interpret two backticks as an open curly double quote and two apostrophes as a close double curly quote Note that single quotes should also be treated the same way To get the ASCII versions use preformatted or if separately available nowiki markup But much as it pains me I come from a typography background I m not going to recommend this for core Creole My guess is that it s likely to cause problems for unsophisticated users and that s an ungoal that is probably more important than the gain in typographic sophistication The preferred method for getting curly quotes in Barghest will thus be Unicode and client side markup editors are encouraged to support that as a pseudo input method the same way most word processors today do The discussion on the SmartyPants webpage is probably of interest here Note that they implement backslash substitution to force non smart punctuation Their double backslash syntax for escaping a single backslash would be a collision for the proposed linebreak syntax and in general backslash escapes strike me as unWikiLike Raph Levien 31 Dec 2006 Of course both semantics and presentation have their place Obviously you want to use presentational markup or even better just WYSIWYG editor in any kind of a desktop publishing typesetting or graphical software for a printshop Especially if you have graphical skills and experience with typography On the other hand if you re a writer this is all additional work for you Work that is better delegated to the responsible professionals like typesetters or web designers Why should you be burdened with beautifying your text to make it readable when this can be done automatically Another advantage of semantic markup is its portability The literal new lines are a good example here they make it impossible to adapt the text to a different page width Note how you can always convert from semantic markup to presentational actually it s done every time the text is displayed while it s impossible to do it the other way around Certainly we don t want to duplicate HTML nor we dream to cover all the possible meanings of text On the other hand we also don t want to duplicate PostScript or TeX which are page description languages What we aim for is a healthy balance that leaves the least number of worries on the editor s head while providing him with enough expressive power Of course the definition of enough will change from a wiki site to a wiki site and certainly is totally different for a content management system like your Barghest That s why we want to provide the minimum and let it be extended when needed That s how we don t need to cover all possible semantic meanings If we wanted to go presentational we could simply just put all the enterd text in a large pre tag with some additional rules for substituting for bullets and changing fonts Quoting text is a very important thing in wikis and I m sure it deserves its own markup I don t mean the thread mode here or quoting in a discussion I mean quoting other sources than the wiki site on which the quote appears Currently it s incredibly clumsy in all the text markup languages I know including HTML and all wiki markups I had contact with Then again indenting has no meaning I know people who indent all their text just because they like to have larger left margin It will also produce improper markup for lists when people make a multi paragraph list items intead of using headings like this First paragraph of item one Second paragraph of item one First paragraph of item two I see no sane way to handle this correctly and keep the numbering of lists the way it is expected we best avoid this I fail to see how using instead of makes it better it has all the disadvantages of plus makes it more weird and less compatible with e mails Isn t it a little short sighted to advocate certain markup just to make a one time job for a single person easier Then again I think we don t really want to be compatible with e mails in this case I mean e mail quoting serves a totally different purpose than normal text quoting when you quote an e mail with some in it you most likely want the characters preserved The exact rendering of the document is left to the engine You can use the q tags alone or with the tricks described in the article I linked to or just put the HTML entities for the quoting character You can even do a server side browser detection if you feel like it You still need a formal markup for the quotes because even for plain English text the auto detection of the characters is not possible in every case consider Tis a fools errand and we don t want to make Creole specific to the English language Making it a markup for whole quote rather than for the single characters seems saner and less prone to errors RadomirDopieralski 2006 01 01 I don t have a strong feeling about vs My point is that won t be compatible with emails anyway under the above proposal because email uses at the beginning of every line while the proposed markup only includes the markup at the beginning of the paragraph I still think that inline quote markup is not quite compatible with the goals of Creole For one it violates NotNew because there is no existing wiki that uses it For two the preferred rendering is dependent on locale so that s one more thing for people to mis configure But again I don t have a strong feeling about this and would find it a useful way to get my beloved curly quotes if consensus developed here that it did belong in core Creole The discussion of presentation vs semantic markup belongs on a different page so I have created Wiki markup has presentation flavor Raph Levien 2007 01 01 I think at the beginning of a line might work And for people used to old school email clients will think of it as principle of least surprise But modern email clients rarely expose this using indentation color and border left instead For newcomers therefore using does not have any significant benefits Using would at least be recognized by all users coming from a Usemod derivative wiki Personally I d still be interested in writing an Oddmuse extension that uses leading whitespace to determine indentation Alex Schroeder Radomir sees a problem with this First paragraph of item one Second paragraph of item one First paragraph of item two But I see it as a pretty reasonable solution to multi paragraph list items and don t see any serious problems implementing it Sure the algorithm for converting to X HTML is not exactly trivial but not any worse than other things I ve seen proposed for example to find the end of preformatted blocks Implementation wise treat all three of as forms of indentation with the number of characters indicating the level of indentation The bullet or number is from this point of view extra decoration on the indented block I was going to write up the algorithm in pseudocode but I think I ll just implement it Python then it ll be easy to play with test cases and see exactly how complicated it turns out Raph Levien 2007 01 07 Just a random thought how about making just into a third kind of list a bulletless list MoinMoin has something like this they use for that This could be also an answer for people complaining on the forced newline from personal experience I can see that they often miss it when trying to make this kind of bulletless list of links on a page This would also solve another problem I have with indented blocks the fact that there is no markup for it in HTML XHTML DocBook or LaTeX Didn t UseMod use that braindamaged format derieved from definition lists for marking indeted block by the way RadomirDopieralski 2007 01 08 Ok the implementation is live now You can see the results at http ghestalt ghilbert org wiki NestedLists and the relevant code is in ghmarkup py Most of the logic is in the ListState class which I think is not too bad considering the richness of markup it supports The results don t pass XHTML validation because that requires ul li ul to introduce a nested list while I just do ul ul This should be fairly easy to fix I don t mind if you think of this indented block markup as really meaning bulletless list As you point out MoinMoin renders it as li style list style type none I think it s perfectly fine if we leave the choice between that and say blockquote to the implementor I also don t mind if the markup character is rather than perhaps to emphasize the fact that it s a list I m not familiar with UseMod history but don t you think adapting things that speakers find useful but experts find degraded to be entirely within the spirit of creole Raph Levien 2007 01 07 This is very tricky When an user say he wants something and he describes the looks of it it s rarely the looks he s actually after When they say I want this text to be black pointing at a fragment of black text on white paper I obediently make the selected fragment of text bold Another time when an user points at a line of text and says he wants it bold I obediently turn it into a chapter heading It s easy Once an user came and said I want indentation here only not indented Some thinking and examining the provided text together with a sample of intended output he found somewhere on a web revealed that he wanted a blockquote only not indented but with some picture added to it instead as a mark of it being a quote People describe looks when they talk but this doesn t mean that they always mean the looks As for the spirit of Creole I understand it has two goals allow to exchange text of pages between wikis in practice this only requires consistency and semantic ish markup allow to contribute to wikis without knowing its markup or local traditions this means that I need markup for relevant parts of my text semantic markup as I don t know the local tradition according to which putting a footnote next to someone s name is a horrible offense this is not made up RadomirDopieralski 2007 01 08 To do indentation in bulleted numbered lists we don t need a new markup A simple breakline could suffice There is the matter of indented paragraphs in lists though ul li Item 1 br Line 2 of Item 1 li ul vs ul li Item 1 p Second paragraph p li ul I would say that a generalization is in order Break Markup Implicit line break Not supported Forced line break Double backslash Implicit paragraph break normal behaviour Two consecutive newlines Forced paragraph break Triple backslash double backslash and triple backslash could be used anywhere not only in lists I know that the triple backslash is a new markup but is there a Wiki out there that makes that difference already IMO they should Should we move this discussion to Lists and Line Breaks EricChartre 2007 01 10 I just saw that my suggestion below is redundant with the first one at the top of the page As for quoting it could be a variation of preformatting Quoted text for example or Quoted text Generalization again as it could be used inline or alone at the beginning of a line In the former case the rendering would be similar to emphasis In the latter it would be a block quote It is a matter of semantics vs presentation Advantages One markup for quoting inline or block Works the same way as preformatted Makes a strong differenciation between presentation markups emphasis and semantically oriented one quote Disadvantages Same problems with parsing as preformatted blocks New markup Is there any existing wiki that does it this way EricChartre 2007 01 10 Not that I think it s a very useful option but using something like or to mark start and end of quotes blockquotes won t allow to nest them Also it s not NotNew My opinion is we should get the most widespread syntax and it s clearly the email style start each line with a Annoying I agree but I don t know of anything it could conflict with No point in using instead Apart from personal tastes I don t see particular advantages over Michele Tomaiuolo 2007 02 08 Do you need separate markup for block quotes and indented paragraphs If not I d suggest something similar to MediaWiki i e one or more colons at the beginning of the paragraph with empty lines to have separate quotes This is a normal paragraph Top level quote Second paragraph of the same quote linefeed is ignored A nested quote Top level quote continues here And this is a second top level quote This way one can easily reformat source code with wordwrap without caring about markup which would be moved inside lines YvesPiguet 2007 02 08 I d like to note that e mail also or are used is technically not a block quote It s traditionally used for something completely different quoting the text we are responding to not for including quotations and excerpts from external sources I ve encoutered this style used for block quotes only 2 or 3 times in my life and it was jarring and unnatural for me it seemed as if the author attributed the quoted text to me Much more widespread among experienced users and distinctive way of marking up quotetions in e mail and news is the use of v before the quoted text and v after it alone on a line But I don t recommend it for Creole Technical shortcomings make the style practically useless for editable and automatically wrapped text on the wiki It s awkward adds a lot of user s work looks ugly and has poorly readable Personally I think it s unacceptable I don t understand why would you want to nest block quotes and how would it be presented on wikis that have chosen not to indent quotes but instead use one of several other traditional ways of marking block quotes different font background color italics decorative quotes There is simply no such thing as a nested block quote RadomirDopieralski 2007 02 08 I m not saying that I like nested quotes actually I don t But they exist and some people find them useful They are ab used in forums and discussions for example Using or doesn t make a big difference for me It s a matter of convenience popularity conflicts etc Acceptance at the end What s important is that quoting or indenting I wouldn t like to distinguish them is allowed by most wikis It s popular in forums blogs discussions Users would certainly benefit from a unified syntax Michele Tomaiuolo 2007 02 08 So Radomir would you accept one or more colons at the beginning of paragraphs not lines as in the example above If you do we could make it a proposal to provoke more feedback Note that I d still like to use initial colon for dd in HTML But I don t think there is any conflict dd must follow dt lines beginning with a semicolon in definition lists YvesPiguet 2007 02 08 I gradually grew to believe that there is no special markup needed for block quotes as well as for definition lists by the way There are many wiki engines that seem to pursuit a 1 1 compatibility with HTML and introduce markup that mirrors the HTML tags I don t think we really need special markup for these kinds of elements when they can be easily marked with patterns consisting of other markup You can easily indicate a block quote by surrounding a whole paragraph with quotation marks There is no need for special markup for that and it works equally well with just plain text users will see that it s quoted simple wiki parsers normal paragraph with quotation marks and sophisticated parsers they might attempt to detect such patterns and render the page differently using blockquote tags for example and text processing scripts as long as you can distinguish

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Quoting (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Radeox
    PreformattedAndNowiki Home Talk PreformattedAndNowikiReasoning Home Talk ProportionalFontNowikiProposal Home Talk Quoting Home View Page Discussion V iew A ttach I nfo Hi I recently downloaded Radeox and the RadeoxJSPWikiFilter and am now trying to understand how to make Creole appear in JSPWiki I see on the download page that the latest file is timestamped 16 03 2005 Is there any way I could get the latest code with Creole to test

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Radeox (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Radomir Dopieralski
    on the Web you write for skimming see http www useit com alertbox 9710a html and http danbricklin com log boldreactions htm I hope this helps RadomirDopieralski 2007 02 05 It helps convince me that the people involved have no idea what they re doing In particular the use of wikis that actually still support the dangerously useless WikiWord convention proves that you just aren t qualified to do this job If you were you d certainly not be using Meatball or JSPwiki to debate When you revert pages you should move comments to the talk pages yourself Not to so is abusive if they raise valid points There was no reason to revert any of those edits unless you are looking to evade scrutiny on some bad choices I think there s nothing more to say if you are going to assert that you ve thought through your bad choices Your research on actual use cases and text on the web in general is nowhere near as extensive as mine but without getting into foolish credential comparing we can t discuss that So this is done Good luck and goodbye I will not be advocating use of Creole Anonymous 2007 02 05 Given what appears to be Anonymous s same IP post to MeatballWiki WikiMarkupStandardIsMisguided last paragraph before my response I m wondering why he even bothered posting on here JaredWilliams 2007 02 05 It was a pleasure to meet a man of such strong opinions such as you Mr Anonymous The thing I reverted was not a comment it was an edit of a paragraph distorting its meaning Same with my replies It really saddens me that you consider this abusive Creditentials comparing is not only foolish but also impossible with someone who is afraid to mention his

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.RadomirDopieralski (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Raph Levien
    the Nuveon GmbH view find Quick search type ahead Recent Searches Clear Talk Raph Levien Your trail Talk PreformattedAndNowikiReasoning Home Talk ProportionalFontNowikiProposal Home Talk Quoting Home Talk Radeox Home Talk RadomirDopieralski Home View Page Discussion V iew A ttach I nfo Welcome to Creole and thank you for your insights You surely have a lot of good ideas and your point of view provides a nice counterweight for the semantic

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.RaphLevien (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Raph S 0.4 Recommendations
    search type ahead Recent Searches Clear Talk Raph S 0 4 Recommendations Your trail Talk ProportionalFontNowikiProposal Home Talk Quoting Home Talk Radeox Home Talk RadomirDopieralski Home Talk RaphLevien Home View Page Discussion V iew A ttach I nfo I know that wikis are inherently messy but we try to keep some order We all put our recommendations on our user pages for example I also see that you recommend some new things or things that have some problems with them do you think you could discuss them first on apropriate pages RadomirDopieralski 2007 01 07 Apologies I thought a new page might be useful to group my suggestions for 0 4 into one place Many interact in various ways especially the line endings If there is consensus that this would be better served on my user page I ll happily move it there What new thing am I recommending I realize that there is not yet consensus on most of them but as far as I can see everything on my list has been at least proposed And I think I ve discussed or at least advanced an argument for almost of them on the relevant talk pages As for

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.RaphS0.4Recommendations (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Reference
    lot of text A lot of text A lot of text Alot of text A lot of text A lot of text A lot of text Alot of text A lot of text A lot of text A lot of text Alot of text A lot of text A lot of text A lot of text Alot of text A lot of text A lot of text A lot of text Alot of text A lot of text A lot of text A lot of text Alot of text A lot of text A lot of text A lot of text 1 This first reference info Hungry Minds Inc 1980 2 The second reference info Hound dog deniers Inc 1580 3 The third reference info 1180 Whichis exactly what this wiki http www jspwiki org wiki TextFormattingRules ref TextFormattingRules 1 does with the following reproduced text This is second 2 reference the first being on the top line to show the link this is the third 3 reference A lot of text 1 This first reference info Hungry Minds Inc 1980 2 The second reference info Hound dog deniers Inc 1580 3 The third reference info 1180 Some more thoughts The great thing about Wikipedia references and one which I will try to reproduce whether or not creole makes it part of the spec is the ability to automatically list all the references at the end of the page Logically a reference placer ought to be something in the form Bugs and how to find them Isonomia 2008 Which on the face of it says the text bugs and should be replaced by an empty internal reference or alternatively it could be thought to say bugs and should be replaced by a number As this is what a reference is I would suggest something like this There are then two additional problems How to refer to the same reference a second time How to put a place holder for the list Now I suppose if internal references are tied to headings as I suggested on the Intra Page Links then is an unlikely symbol in the link especially as it can t be used in the hyperlink So how about a naming convention This is a some text about bugs Bugs and how to find them Isonomia 2008 Bugs This is more text with the same reference Bugs and this is yet another reference where I want to have the same reference Bugs Which just leaves the question of how to trigger the creation of the reference table Here are some suggestions 1 2 The first probably is ambiguous because if ref means a link to http www example com thispage htm ref then really means make a hyperlink to http www example com thispage htm i e the top of the page The second means make a hyperlink to or make a link to number which if that were to produce a list of references with back links to

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Reference (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Reference Implementation
    ambiguous The code should be obviously written to be readable and documented according to the style popular with given language this usually means comments or equivalent mechanism Should the documentation include a mathematical proof of correctness of the program A dissertation about the program s design and design decisions made Installation instructions RadomirDopieralski 2007 Nov 21 Yes YvesPiguet 2007 Nov 21 Yes as in all of the above This is quite a lot of work RadomirDopieralski 2007 Nov 21 Yes we should have some common sense here A reference implementation should be easy to use and easy to grasp be it with a good interface clear code good comments good usage examples and or good external documentation A mathematical proof of correctness would be difficult with the lack of precision of Creole 1 0 YvesPiguet 2007 Nov 21 As I see it a reference implementation would only have to output a DOM tree in some form XML so that it could be compared with the output of the application I m developing and want to test It doesn t need to be fast or efficient but it would be nice if it had a lot of options in all those

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.ReferenceImplementation (2016-02-11)
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