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  • Talk.Remove Placeholder Proposal
    for this RadomirDopieralski 2007 01 24 JSPWiki implementation is going to use them We already have some support I find them to be the reason why I signed up for the project in the first place JanneJalkanen Maybe they could be defined a little better then Are the placeholders like They could benefit from similar escaping rules then for example Or are they just a number name hash thing Because the description of memento patter tells just about encoding the state of the objects Quoting the object definition in the original markup is one perfectly valid and most straightforward way of doing it Also note that removing it from the core spec doesn t necessarily mean removing it from implementations or from the implementation recommendations Is there a reason to require all wikis to use the same markup for placeholder I can name a few Are these reasons also good for keeping the content of placeholders standarised I won t fight to death over this proposal I just thought that since there are two mentions of it it s worth bringing up and discussing The placeholders seem to need some attention On the other hand the timing might be bad

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.RemovePlaceholderProposal (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Require Space After Bullet Proposal
    bold and second level bullet items here precisely because of the ugly special case Also it is relatively simple to parse so that it is always interpreted as bold except when at the beginning of the line and preceded by a first level bullet item At least if you are parsing using something like flex I m not sure about it when using regular expressions though MartijnVanDerKleijn 2007 01 11 No problem when parsing using regular expressions according to my experience MicheleTomaiuolo 2007 01 11 Another argument for requiring a space after bullets is that Creole should represent a minimal common set of rules shared by other wiki dialects which all wiki engines should interpret correctly Right So I think requiring a space makes it simpler for engines to handle Creole The stricter the better If engines relax this constraint well it s an extension and it s allowed OT now but this could also stand for titles of subsections for examples If we say that trailing equal signs are required it would make simpler for existing engines to interpret Creole It would be a single case and not two MicheleTomaiuolo 2007 01 31 I think requiring the space after bullet removes a lot of unnecessary ambiguity The note about unordered lists and bold in the Creole spec cannot always be applied About unordered lists and bold a line starting with including optional whitespace before and afterwards immediately following an unordered list element a line above will be treated as a nested unordered list element Otherwise it will be treated as the beginning of bold text Also note that bold and or italics cannot span lines in a list Considering that note and without a space after each bullet in the sample below the following could be misinterpreted Schedule Start Date 01 Jul 2006 End Date 31 Dec 2006 Status Complete Schedule Start Date 01 Jul 2006 End Date 31 Dec 2006 Status Complete MarkWharton 2007 02 01 I don t like the proposal Again like with linebreaks it is a proposal from a viewpoint of programmers enarmored by the simplicity of their code forgetting about the users for gods sake MakeTheMachineWorkHarder ChristophSauer 2007 Feb 01 I strongly agree with Christoph I use the TracWiki quite often and it requires a space before the bullet and even after messing that up several times I still sometimes forget to add the space and I am a professional wiki researcher specializing in wiki markup I can t imagine the problem being different for spaces after a bullet Users will forget Then they ll forget again Then again And each time they ll be frustrated because they tried to use wiki markup and it didn t do what they expected Then they ll complain that wiki markup is stupid and rightfully so because imho requiring a space after a bullet is stupid Yes there are possible problems with ambiguity of unordered lists and bold But I would say these cases happen about 0 1 of the time and no one should primarily develop a system to specifically account for obscure edge cases Also I don t see many people here arguing from the user s point of view but from the programmer s point of view A user doesn t care at all about regular expressions or how beautiful the code is A user doesn t even care what a wiki is They just want to be able to collaborate as easily as possible and that is what we are trying to help them accomplish ChuckSmith 2007 Feb 01 I think a space should be required only after two stars There must be some way to distinguish between unordered sublists and bold making it too complicated depending on the context for instance or unspecified will make the life of the programmer and the user more complicated imo I m against the systematic use of spaces after any other number or combination of bullets A simple rule will also be important when we discuss list items spanning multiple lines in the source code YvesPiguet 2007 Feb 01 Ok I removed that makes parsers easier to write advantage especially that it s only true for some values of easier and for some languages and approaches The proposal still stands RadomirDopieralski 2007 02 01 I agree with Christoph about making the machine work harder but ambiguity is ambiguity With the current spec it is possible to produce sequences of text which cannot be determined to be one way or another That was the point of my example above Forgive me if I m wrong but I don t believe the linebreaks proposal has been argued on the point of making implementation easier Very real and valid arguments have been put forward there Anyhow getting back to the subject The following is not clear and cannot be determined first level list item 1 second level list item 1 first level bold list item 2 first level bold list item 3 Is it as described or is it actually first second and third level list items The following is clear and can be determined first level list item 1 second level list item 1 first level bold list item 2 first level bold list item 3 The only way I can see how making the machine work harder can deal with the first case it to require closing the bold sequence But that s a whole other argument MarkWharton 2007 02 02 I think a user will almost immediately see the problem after previewing or saving and fix it I see no reason for requiring whitespace for what I suspect to be a rare piece of markup compared with general unordered list usage I left in the use of hypen in my parser so first level list item 1 second level list item 1 first level bold list item 2 first level bold list item 3 isn t ambigous JaredWilliams 2007 02 We already ruled out hyphen because of different kinds of ambiguity Look at the following numbers 1 2 5 3 4 Which ones you think are positive and which are negative and also this rare case more common when blog like newlines are used When hyphenating compound words you put the hyphen on both sides of the line break I think that a single hyphen is just too common in normal language to be used for markup It s also rarely used in wikis Incidentally requiring white space after the bullet resolves this ambiguity as well As for user freedom I don t quite get it It doesn t restrict your freedom more that a don t jump out of the window sign It s not an assalut on your freedom when you re forbidden to do something you don t want to do anyways Similar case with forgetting to put the space after the bullet That s also not possible it s a muscle reflex You can t forget how to ride a bike Of course you could get confused if there were two kinds of bikes requiring different handling But the space after bullet is used everywhere Sometimes it s not forced but it is always allowed This is a typography tradition picked up from all the books and magazines and pretty much everythig you read just like the space after end of sentence period There are two exceptions I can think of when using dashes for bullets some typographers advice to use only very thin space as to now break the page composition and of course when you want to be original on some kind of a poster but then the bullets are usually of weird shapes and different color than the text Some examples from the sylabus wiki http sylabus wmid amu edu pl Podstawowe pojecia i narz C4 99dzia informatyki action raw http sylabus wmid amu edu pl Algorytmy i struktury danych action raw http sylabus wmid amu edu pl Matematyka dyskretna action raw http sylabus wmid amu edu pl Podstawy programowania action raw These are some pages that were made public by their editors so I can show them But I ve looked at all the pages in the wiki about 160 now and I haven t found a single case of no space after the bullet although the hyphens dominate We can include this test in TheStudentExperiment RadomirDopieralski 2007 02 02 Why not ignore whitespace at the beginning of the line except when required to separate tokens Item 1 Item 1 1 Item 1 2 Bold Item 2 Does not force a required space unless needed JaredWilliams 2007 02 02 I think I ve put my idea very bad Sorry Actually I was referring to rules more than engines I wrote engines but I meant wiki languages My point is if Creole requires a space after bullets both languages requiring a space and those not requiring one are 100 Creole compatible in the sense they can interpret Creole they extend it if Creole doesn t require a space some wiki languages those which will expect a space won t fully understand Creole texts Allowing two different syntaxes for the same semantic makes Creole a bit harder to be adopted I m talking in general here more than specifically on lists bullets and spaces I cannot see this in Goal s but I would put it as the stricter the better Please note that I m not arguing it should be respected in every case but it should be one of the goals to be balanced against others MicheleTomaiuolo 2007 02 02 There is something that Jeff Raskin http www raskincenter org has to say about monotonity Archy counters these problems by eliminating modes which can be a significant source of confusion and error and streamlining the decision process through monotony that is giving you only one way to accomplish a task Modelessness and monotony encourage the formation of useful habits that enable you to work faster and more confidently When such habits are fully formed you can perform those tasks without conscious thought and thus not be distracted from your content and your intentions This is called achieving automaticity So it s not always the stricter the better but it is there should be one obvious way of doing something Incidentally this is also one of the guidelines in Python a language that scores high in readability and ease of editing existing code Here s the Zen of Python http www python org dev peps pep 0020 RadomirDopieralski 2007 02 02 Looking at random Wikipedia articles I have found that about half of them include bullet points that do not start with a space Users are not used to having to put a space after bullet points The above ambiguities are solved just by requiring a space between the bullet and start of bold A triple asterisk at the beginning of a line indicates a third level list item clearly not a first level bold item This is the only case where it can come up and I imagine the first thing users will do in light of such a problem is to add the space I think we are going overboard with edge cases in order to make the syntax in some sense more consistent instead of going with what most users are used to ChuckSmith 2007 Feb 05 I asusme this is also a response to my post at Talk Lists So An ul block after something else than a list item must start with a single asteriks followed by non asterisk If it starts with two astersisks it s just a normal paragraph starting with bold text When it starts with three asterisks it s just a normal paragraph starting with a bold asterisk And when it starts with four asterisks they are just deleted and normal paragraph follows Is that right If so I m going to implement it like this now RadomirDopieralski 2007 02 05 An advantage of requiring this space is that notations to vote using lists v will work nicely since the v can t be interpreted as text This saves having to overload a character and lets users specify 26 kinds of votes See MakeTheMachineWorkHarder and Talk ListsReasoning for more on this idea Anonymous 2007 02 05 According to WikiMatrix there are 17 wiki Engines Using Asterisks For Lists And Bold How do they resolve the ambiguity problem ChuckSmith 2007 Feb 06 Having the space after the bullet solves the ambiguity problem and makes the Creole markup itself more collision free I proposed another collision type for this see Talk CollisionFree SteffenSchramm 2007 02 07 Since removing single newlines in lists could make the ambiguity about bold list more serious I ve yet another proposal In fact Most occasional users won t need nested lists at all Experienced users will be able to remember the space What about a compromise Let s be forgiving for the first level and require a space for nested lists No ambiguity while preserving usability I mean One Two Three We could say that a space is required but implementers are strongly encouraged to be forgiving for the first level Michele Tomaiuolo 2007 02 08 I like this idea ChuckSmith 2007 Feb 09 I m speechless As soon as we introduce the notion of experienced user we are creating a barrier between the almost experienced users and barely experienced users introducing additional special cases will surely make it esier to for the users to understand for the developers to debug and for us to keep track of insert irony mark here why the space before the bullet is no different from space after the bullet yet second level list is so much different from the first level list isn t it a little careless can we at least list the cases of ambiguity that allowing new lines in list introduces RadomirDopieralski 2007 02 09 The additional ambiguity is the following one Paragraph before This is a list item where I want something to be bold Before going to the next item Paragraph after It s worse than before because before without removing single breaks this could happen only when introducing a bold paragraph after a list You were simply supposed to leave a blank line before the bold paragraph Now well you can break the line where you want but if it happens just before some bold text Who knows You simply cannot break there I was suggesting the special case for first level lists as a last resort to remove at least worst ambiguities I agree it s not good In fact my preference is to require a space always If people here really believe that some forgiveness will help Creole to be more useful then at least let s reduce the generated ambiguity And let s leave this forgiveness out of the standard saying first of all that a space is required If I understood you don t like the following are strongly encouraged Do you Radomir Put it another way No problem Or remove it I would agree Some more serious conflicts could arise in languages which allow single stars to express emphasis Crossmark Markdown I think these languages could not be forgiving at all For this reason we cannot require to interpret lists without the space after a bullet in general At most we can suggest it where it s possible But I wouldn t go this way if I had to choose Michele Tomaiuolo 2007 02 09 Faced with this kind of choice and having the awlays require space forbidden I think I d just leave it ambiguous Especially considering the fact that the users can easily avoid this case if the text is not parsed the way they like by just moving or removing entirely the line break There was no such obvious fix available in the bold text alone on a line case RadomirDopieralski 2007 02 09 I did a little experiment I downloaded the backup of the english wikipedia s all pages and looked at the percentages of both styles of 1st level lists in them Unfortunately I was able to only extract about 6 3GB of text as I ran out of disk space Anyways I hope that the sampling is not biased because of that In the sample I checked there are 1 763 983 first level list items with a letter a z A Z 0 9 immediately following the asterisk The average length of these items is 90 2 characters or 12 3 words 80 of them didn t have a space in front of the bullet too There are 4 863 709 first level list items with a space or tab immediately after the asterisk The average length of them is 81 characters or 10 words There are also 5 381 592 first level list items with neither a space or a letter right after the bullet nor an asterisk of course 25 of them were lists starting with bold or italic text This means that over 26 of list items start with a letter immediately after the bullet and over 57 of 1st level list items didn t have a space after the bullet This is an enexpectedly high result I didn t mean to count the average length of the entries but I used wc without any parameters so this data came for free I found it interesting that spaceless items are on average longer than the spaced ones I went to several randomly picked pages and checked their history It turns out that the list items wereinitially paragraphs but somebody decided that they look better with a dot in front of them so he went trough the source and added an asterisk at the beginning of every paragraph I don t know in how many cases it was what happened but one is sure the experienced users will use the

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.RequireSpaceAfterBulletProposal (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Roadmap To Creole 1.0
    Home Talk RequireSpaceAfterBulletProposal Home View Page Discussion V iew A ttach I nfo I m still a bit unsure where I should place Creole philosophically I still like the criterion should not stand out negatively in an email or be broken by email line wrapping On the other hand markups that fully embrace this philosophy such as Markdown are unpleasantly heavyweight especially when it comes to tables Is there a discussion on this somewhere It looks like a pro multiline list entry argument The other end of the spectrum would be write friendly syntax For example email friendly blockquoting where each line starts with is much harder to type than Creole s write friendly nowiki 2007 05 03 AxelRauschmayer should not stand out negatively in an email or be broken by email line wrapping Could you give us a reference where you got that from It would fit as an example for a requirement opposed on a markup language by HardLineBreakingEditors Those editors are evil They are incompatible with the wiki markups out there Since creole tries to be a common wiki markup language it has to behave like the others so its not my personal oppinion that those editors

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.RoadmapToCreole1.0 (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Signature
    Recent Changes Talk Index wiki node Sandbox Copyright C by the contributors Some rights reserved license BY SA Sponsored by the Wiki Symposium and the Nuveon GmbH view find Quick search type ahead Recent Searches Clear Talk Signature Your trail Talk Reference Home Talk ReferenceImplementation Home Talk RemovePlaceholderProposal Home Talk RequireSpaceAfterBulletProposal Home Talk RoadmapToCreole1 0 Home View Page Discussion V iew A ttach I nfo Content refactored to Talk MagicWord

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Signature (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Spam Filter
    to log in in the future Janne where do those Null posts come from Honestly i have no idea Christoph 2006 12 19 The null posts are a known and notoriously hard to track bug JanneJalkanen EY You have a real problem with spam protection her Can not edit some pages because this wiki thinks some other comments are spam WTF JörgGottschling I m trying to post a cheat sheet I prepared I posted it temporarily on my wiki instead now and every time I get a message Akismet tells Herb you re a spammer Herb trusts Akismet and I trust Herb Incident code DXYZNV Personally I prefer to revert some spam here and there than to not be able to post anything at all RadomirDopieralski 2006 12 31 There is at least one automated spam bot for JSPWiki jspwiki org is getting hundreds of automated edits per day Unfortunately it has ceased to be about some spam here and there Akismet is the Wordpress anti spam system I have no idea why it is not working as it should But it can be turned off if needed We calculate a delta of the change and submit that to Akismet If you re being stopped because of some other people editing something on the pages then that is a bug and please report it JanneJalkanen I ve turned off Akismet temporarily There s also a missconfiguration so that you currently cannot get a new account I am working on this tomorrow Please be patient Christoph 31 Dec 2006 Meatball was using Akismet for awhile and decided to drop it Not entirely sure on all the reasons but one was it wasn t an open process Its been replaced with a Meatball EditHash and a simple CAPTCHA if there are URLs in the post So far only had a handful of spam posts have gotten through in several weeks JaredWilliams Well I tried to post the CheatSheet finally managed to do it It only contains 2 urls both to this wiki no idea why Akismet thinks this is a spammy domain Btw any idea on how to quote the CheatSheet so that it can be easily copied to WikiCreole wikis Thank you for making it work and thanks a lot for all the work with caring about and hosting this wiki Don t let the minor technical problems discourage you RadomirDopieralski 2007 01 01 Thanks Christoph for opening access so I could post I didn t mean to be impatient and certainly appreciate how difficult an admin s job is especially when under attack by spam I ll revert all the spam I see It s disappointing that the spammers seem to be gaining the upper hand What I plan to do for Barghest is have an invitation system for new accounts not too dissimilar from the way Gmail manages their signups It s unfortunate that people won t be able to just sign up in one click from their web

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.SpamFilter (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Spir
    that a newline doesn t introduce a paragraph so to produce a vertical spacing on rendered text for instance Rather that it doesn t do anything Which in not what a writer expects why did s he hit the bl key Which is not what is shown in the edit window Which is not what happens in all other writing contexts In other words a newline must be either an end of line mark br or a end of line tag p The single line problem The single line problem for listitem tablecell content IS a problem that I think needs to be fixed The usual solution is to have both a begin end pattern at the listitem cell level unless you know of another approach case of tables denis No There s no magic The language syntax lexicon pattern is a closed field we are limited to a few possibilities The aim is to try and choose the most intuitive clear consistent one Now we may be tempted to introduce an alternative more expressive syntax for rich tables For instance row 1 format cell 1 format text cell 2 format text row 2 format cell 1 format text cell 2 format text where format is optionnal and text holds whatever you like up to a full page But the points are that it would confuse users because of 1 2 syntactic forms for tables the simple visual one must be kept 2 a layout that doesn t match rendered text 3 complexity Now imho creole s low level of expressivity is a second rank pb compared to that misleading newline swallowing semantics of blank lines I m open to your to be expressed views on how semantics are affected by the alinea concept Re the cut paste difficulties with hard line breaks I tend to think that s an application issue I first normalize all line breaks prior to parsing wikitext to avoid those problems denis Well hard for me to introduce that in few words First let s admit that a newline is preserved as a normal character i e it would start a new line which should be rare bad practice Then how to express a new regular paragraph instead If a paragraph start tag similar to for a list item is not welcome then remains the blank line double newline solution Good But there is a difference between a start tag and a blank line the latter is rather or more a separator both in source and displayed texts Think at lists for instance a start tag is not a separator Do you agree with that If yes then you can imagine that this blank line will often be used rather as a page sub section separator than as a paragraph end or start tag Thus introducing a new level of text visual semantic structure You see what I mean You may not agree This must not be bad I rather like that idea In traditionnal

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Spir (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Steffen Schramm
    Nuveon GmbH view find Quick search type ahead Recent Searches Clear Talk Steffen Schramm Your trail Talk RequireSpaceAfterBulletProposal Home Talk RoadmapToCreole1 0 Home Talk Signature Home Talk SpamFilter Home Talk Spir Home View Page Discussion V iew A ttach I nfo Hello Steffen welcome We await your plugin with great anticipation Using Creole on the Creole Wiki itself seems very apropriate somehow It s also very interesting to see it

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.SteffenSchramm (2016-02-11)
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  • Talk.Stricter Syntax
    Symposium and the Nuveon GmbH view find Quick search type ahead Recent Searches Clear Talk Stricter Syntax Your trail Talk RoadmapToCreole1 0 Home Talk Signature Home Talk SpamFilter Home Talk Spir Home Talk SteffenSchramm Home View Page Discussion V iew A ttach I nfo After evaluation by users this proposal has been withdrawn The current specification means that anything after e g a is bold This will often lead to problems when these characters are used on their own e g is often put in text to mean refer to the point elsewhere The potential problem is the same for other inline markup Proposal The proposal is to ignore any symetrical inline double markup which does not immediately proceed a non whitespace character but not That is refer to my letter previously would print as is but refer to my letter would come out as bold Comment An even tighter requirement would logically be to insist the starting sequence would be whitespace double symbol Non white space and final sequence the reverse But whilst this is probably logical this is not part of the proposal because the chance of mistakenly starting a block of bold text should be low and

    Original URL path: http://wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.StricterSyntax (2016-02-11)
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